0081 - Stop Fixing—Start Transforming: How to Spark Real Change ft Dr. Monica Sharma

How do we create a world where our children—and all of us—can truly thrive? In this episode, Ben Owden sits down with Dr. Monica Sharma, a physician, epidemiologist, and former senior leader at the United Nations, whose groundbreaking work in Radical Transformational Leadership helps people tackle global challenges by harnessing their own inner capacities. Drawing from decades of experience across continents, Dr. Sharma explains how universal values—like dignity, equity, and compassion—can disrupt exploitative systems and foster real, systemic change.

She reveals how her Conscious Full-Spectrum Response model simultaneously solves problems, transforms unworkable norms, and taps into our innate human wisdom. If you’re ready to stop applying mere band-aids and start building a society you’d be proud to pass on to your kids, this conversation offers deep insights and actionable steps. Discover why Dr. Sharma believes radical transformation is “easy,” how to align your values with your actions, and what it really takes to spark sustainable, large-scale shifts—right where you are.

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Transcript

Dr. Monica Sharma

What I mean is that we are in total attunement with ourselves. Attunement is a leadership construct which talks about the sense of fulfillment and tune it's borrowed from music, is that we are in harmony with ourselves, where what we do is in harmony with how I think and is in harmony and attuned to who I am and what I deeply care about. Therefore, it's easy. But I think our habitual patterns are not necessarily that way because we've been taught to do things and think in ways that may not actually resonate with ourselves. So that's what I mean by it's easy.

Ben Owden

Being in the middle is challenging from balancing the demands of those above with the needs of those below. Balancing between pushing the strategy forward and investing in the developments of your teams, stewarding what is presently working while being a change agent. We understand the tension that exists with being in the middle where you're asked to be everything to everyone. Dear Middle Manager, we see you, we've heard you and we're here to help you. WhyLead Consultant Consultancy is bringing you Thrive in the middle, a 12-week cohort-based leadership program designed for those in middle management. An immersive program where leadership isn't just taught, it's honed, refined and brought to life through a blend of expert guidance, peer collaboration and immersive practical learning experiences. Join Thrive today and be more than just a link in your organization. Be its strongest link. To learn more and enroll, email us at yoda@whyleadothers.com 

Mambo this is Ben Owden, the leadership Mr. Miyagi. My hope is that this conversation will help you find the clarity and conviction you need to lead a more meaningful and impactful life. I have curated some of the best thinker practitioners from all over the world to help you get to your leadership nirvana. So sit tight and let's go on this journey together. 

Greetings to you. I hope you are at peace and are having a meaningful day. Welcome to another episode of the why Lead Podcast. I am your host, Ben Owden. In a time of unprecedented challenges and opportunities, how do we mobilize our collective wisdom to create meaningful and lasting changes? Why is it that despite our immense potential and resources, billions are left in poverty, millions face violence and environmental destruction looms large? And how do outdated norms, systemic injustices and exclusionary cultures keep us struck in a cycle of suffering, conflict and destruction? Can universal values like dignity, equity and compassion truly shift entrenched norms and systems and how do we begin this transformation in our own lives? These are the universal questions that our guest explores in her groundbreaking book, Radical Transformational Leadership Strategic Action for Change Agents. She is a trained physician and epidemiologist who worked for the United nations for more than 20 years. Currently, she engages worldwide as an international expert and practitioner on leadership development for sustainable and equitable change. She works with the UN management institutions, governments, businesses, media and civil society organization. She has created and uses a unique response model based on extensive application. It's called a conscious full spectrum model, which is for simultaneously solving problems, shifting systems and creating new patterns sourced from individual inner capacity and transformational leadership. And this model specifically is responsible for generating sustainable results across the world. Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Monica Sharma. Dr. Monica, you're most welcome.

Dr. Monica Sharma

Thank you so much. Ben Owen, thank you for welcoming me and thank you for the introduction. I am so pleased to be with you. Knowing the kind of work that you do, the way you unfold the leadership of different people, that itself is wonderful.

Ben Owden

Thank you. Thank you so much and thank you for your gift to the world. This book, reading it has been breathtaking and challenging, you know, because it's decades of experience and work and like, how you framed it in using these, you know, tools and frameworks because then it makes it much easier for people to contextualize and apply it in, you know, in their world, wherever they are.

Dr. Monica Sharma

Thank you. Yes. It's not like a Harry Potter book, you know, it's more like a textbook. And there are places where this is used as a textbook. So. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Ben Owden

Now, in your book, I think at the very beginning of your book, you quote Swami Vivekananda, right? Who says, take up one idea, make that one idea your life. Think of it, dream of it, Live on that idea. Let the brain, muscles, nerves, every part of your body be full of that idea and just leave every other idea alone. This is the way to success. And you say of all the different ideas, for you personally, that idea is our net oneness manifesting in our world. And so I think of all the ideas that you've come across that have emerged in your heart, in your mind, in your spirit, why did this one idea really took root in your heart?

Dr. Monica Sharma

You know, it's hard, Ben, to give a reason for this. It's easier for me to trace, in a way, my life's journey through this process, you know, oneness. It's easy to be friends and have a conversation when we are like spirited, you know, when we care about the same values. What for me is so important, and especially in today's world, is that when there is a difference of opinion, there is a difference maybe of tactic in our ways of addressing something, that we are able to go beyond that and that we are able to see that innate capacity that is there in human beings. And seeing oneness as the source of who I am is so vital. And then one day it struck me that the mindset of a human being that exploits Mother Earth, that commodifies everything from her, is the same as the mindset that commodifies human beings. And I said, what is that? What have we cultivated that is so alien, in a way, to our innate capacity to love? We all have mirror neurons. We resonate with one another. We want to be in community. So what have we done in our education, our marketing, in our philosophies or principles that have created this artificial. I would almost call it artificial because that's not who we are as innate beings. That's not how we are when we are happy. So oneness is that. The other side of oneness that I think I came to is really what I've also written in the book is how I learned from my parents. My father was a senior person in India in the government. And the first thing he did in independent India was to work for the pension of plantation workers, not the management. And everyone then said, what's this? Well, his heart always went to everybody. So I learned. We had children, for example, then, who were marginalized due to caste in India, which is very negative, and they were not allowed into schools. And we always had children at home. And my mother would teach them. And so I learned a kind of loving equity, you know, and doing something about it. So that oneness with everybody came in a way of justice. From my father, from my mother, I learned something else. I learned the love of nature. And I know we would take these long walks when I was a child and I lived in a beautiful hill station in Shillong in India. And she would stop with every little insect, a butterfly, and say. And, you know, admire it for that. So I learned to love nature because of her and animals. And I also learned that every religion from her had a similar foundation. Because religion plays a very important part in shaping our thought process, right? And the rituals and practices. And we celebrated every festival. She was part of the very harsh partition days in India in the late 40s, 1940s. And we know, we celebrated her best friend was practiced Islam. We celebrated Eid, we celebrated Christmas. We celebrated Buddha, Purnima, We Celebrated Diwali, we celebrated. We went to Ramakrishna Mission, we went to the Aurobindo Ashram. We celebrated everything. And. And so to me, there was a sense of oneness in that. And so it's not. I mean, every faith has anchors in the soul and beauty of human beings. And every faith, unfortunately, after it sort of, you know, gone through generations, it has rituals and exclusionary practices. And I think more and more, for example, women are being included in the way we can actually practice different faiths. So I think my oneness stemmed from a place of learning and the joy of that space. The joy of that space.

Ben Owden

No, that's beautiful. And we'll get back to your parents. I think, you know, there's a story that you talk about in the book with your father, and I would love to explore more of that. But I think there's something that you just said now right when you're explaining this idea of oneness. And a thought occurred to me. Think we live in a world, especially the capitalist world, where, you know, habits, sometimes systems and ways of life follow incentives. And I think division has been incentivized, this idea of oneness and some of the values that you talk about, you know, we very few, probably places in the world have seen these ideas incentivized. And I think even there's a. A part of your book where you talk about principles and values and being ethical and how people don't necessarily consider that being pragmatic or being practical or being real and some of the less ethical practices are acceptable. And in fact, you're seen more as you're a pragmatic person if you operate in a certain way. And so I think what sort of incentives then should we even begin to think about creating? Because I think you've been blessed to have that early context, experience in your life where you saw it through the lens of your parents and the world that they chose to create for you and probably your siblings. And so it's an idea that's foundational in who you are. But maybe for people who didn't grow up with that kind of a context, they don't really have that. All they know is the way the world has been. Like, you're saying it's commodified, it's toxic in many ways, it's exclusionary in many ways, and that's all they know. So what sort of incentives can we create to show people that actually there is a better world and it's worth making the sacrifices, taking the intentional steps, and paying the price to get to that world.

Dr. Monica Sharma

Thank you. That's a great question, Ben. And I can share my perspective. So I'll share it in three ways. The first is the word you brought up, capitalism. You know, if we go back to Adam Smith's quotation, and I'll send that to you later, he talks about capitalism, but he also says that if you don't put in place principles of serving everyone, we will fail. So we chose just to take one part of it. And it's not just capitalism. When I look at all cultures and I've worked around the world, whether it is, you know, you look at human history, we have survived as a species by actually dominating other species and other tribes and other groups. So the need to dominate, to survive has been very, very basic, almost in our reptilian brain. And so to me, when you bring up incentives, it's a great question. Why should a human being actually work beyond that space? So one is the systems we have set in. And you brought up that word. So the systems we've set in right now, largely based on a money economic system, has made money our place. We worship everything today is the context, is it affordable? That's the question we ask, is there money enough? But there are other things that you are asking that is beyond just the viability of a business, for example, what else is there for fulfilling work, for being fulfilled in life? So what is that? Incentive? So if we have the same markers of success globally, and the markers of success are extremely materialistic, if we don't change those markers of success, it's hard to change the incentive mechanism. There's the Beautiful 10 Principles written by Donella Meadows in her book, which is a primer actually on systems thinking. And she grades the different types of, you may call it incentives for humans to be able to respond. And she puts the negative feedback, the positive feedback, information very much low in that priority. And she says the highest priority for a human is actually to touch that space where I am able to accomplish goals that matter deeply in my life very much the story you shared about yourself, Ben, when you said, there's some part of me that really feels accelerated or, or fulfilled, and that is in the world of, of developing capacity in self and others. So to me, the incentives need like, you know, one incentive is what motivates the mind and is practical. Another set of incentives is what motivates, not motivates what activates our deepest spirit and heart. This we know as humans that when we can combine the beauty of our heart with our intellect, we have a absolutely Winning formula. It's realistic, it's doable, it's easy to, you know, formulate. So then I come to incentives. How does an organization work where the incentives are different? So when I, you know, I'm working with a group, and in that group there is one, one of the people who was. Who is born blind, and she does this kind of work. She does work on leadership, and she's joined a company. And basically she said, everybody looks at me with pity. But what I said one day is, I don't need pity. I need to be able to work with fulfillment as you do. And she's now conducting a program in business for that. So the question is the incentive for a human being that's not only monetary or, you know, of course we need money. We have to pay bills, we have to rent our place, we have to buy food. But beyond money, money never brought happiness, though. I know Coca Cola says drinking it brings happiness, but I think they have hijacked a very serious word. Yeah. So we know market research that was done, and you are more informed about that than I am. The market research that was done on human behavior shows that the greatest ownership I have towards changing anything or accomplishing a goal is actually when it connects to who I am. And then I need to work in an environment. My business, the institution I work with, must value that space. So we don't value that space. We value other things. And now there are companies that, for example, Patagonia here, many companies around the world that are really looking at their staff and. And fulfillment rather than only incentives that are related to money, to promotion, to.

Ben Owden

Yeah, yeah. And I love what you said, and I'm glad, I think, even. Because when you were explaining, I thought of Patagonia as well, because I remember reading their story, and I love them as a company. And I think, you know, something that you talk about as well in the book, right. This idea of being, you know, like a dualist and like a non dualist. And I think sometimes what I love about the Patagonia story is this idea that it's not just about taking care of our people, but it's actually making intentional investments in preserving the environment and things like that. You know, this could all be money that benefits their shareholders. But it's like we live in an ecosystem and we're all stewards of it and we have to invest. And I think that's not necessarily what's considered conventional wisdom as far as investments and businesses.

Dr. Monica Sharma

So, Ben, it's wonderful that you know Patagonia too, and There are examples like this worldwide. For example, ABC Carpets, sort of the engineers said that, you know, we should not just give away or throw away the old carpets. How about refurbishing it? And they are very environmentally conscious now. Jaipur rugs in India is wonderful. And I heard that they not only look at the issue of business and how the business thrives, but it's about empowering women, it's about breaking clots and caste barriers. So for me, business is becoming more and more a crucial force for social transformation in a serious way, not in what often happens in a token way.

Ben Owden

And I think all the examples that you've given, there is something radical about them because again, it's not the norm. And there's a statement that I came across in your book that surprised me where you say radical transformation is easy because it sources our innate attributes and potential. Of course, you go on to explain that you use the word radical differently from how maybe people who are involved in activism and politics use the word. But what did you mean by this statement? Radical transformation is easy because it sources our innate attributes and potential.

Dr. Monica Sharma

What I mean is that we are in total attunement with ourselves. Attunement is a leadership construct which talks about the sense of fulfillment and tunics borrowed from music is that we are in harmony with ourselves, where what we do is in harmony with how I think and is in harmony and attuned to who I am and what I deeply care about. Therefore it's easy. But I think our habitual patterns are not necessarily that way because we've been taught to do things and think in ways that may not actually resonate with ourselves. So that's what I mean by it's easy because there's a sense of fulfillment there. And I think that's a very, very important incentive to continue doing what we do. I think that's the deepest incentive for us to continue.

Ben Owden

And I love that word attunement, because we have this session and workshop that we run on self leadership for leaders. And our overall philosophy is that the first person you lead is yourself, before you have to engage with everyone else. And a big part of that is value alignment, meaning that are you congruent as a person, as a leader? Do you mean what you say? Do you do? What you say is what you are presenting to the rest of the world a true representation of who you are. And something else that you mentioned before, this idea of markers of success. And I think, I think I have personally aspired to find this attunement. And one marker that I pay attention to is peace. Am I at peace with myself? Am I at peace with God? Am I at peace with what I believe? Am I at peace with my family? Am I at peace? Because when I am, it means that I am living these values that I proclaim, these values that I subscribe to, and like everything else, becomes much easier than when I am not at peace. And so this idea of being value centric, and you talk about this story which I think referenced earlier, where you say, in 1995, you know, your dad, I think, had a gramophone and there was a particular musician that he loved listening to. And actually before our conversation, I was listening to Paul Robson's music. And you said he was particularly like a favorite of your dad as far as musicians and how his music. And of course, he was in an era in America where, you know, civil rights movements and racial injustice and things like that. And how your dad said, you know, he resonates because while maybe India doesn't necessarily face the similar problems, but the inequities are there as well. And you make a statement, you say, this inequity bothered your dad and it bothered you. And it wasn't just this feeling, but actually your family, your parents took active steps and you gave us a few examples earlier as well. And so you had, again, a very strong foundation of being a value driven person. So for people who were born into chaos, never really took time to clarify what is it that they stand for? And we'll talk about that later on, right? This idea of what do I stand for? What is a good place to start?

Dr. Monica Sharma

It's exactly what you said, Ben. It's amazing. Human spirit is amazing. I'm fortunate because I had parents that I have or had, you know, they both passed. But the human spirit is whole and it's amazing. And we know we haven't tapped into our full potential. And we know that when there is one moment in our lives, everybody has been through that space. A moment in their lives when they were maybe young, maybe they were 10 years old or 20 years old, a moment where they saw something and their heart broke, opened in a way that they could embrace that person. I mean, for many young children, it is seeing an animal mishandled. And for many young people is like when their friends are beat up or something has happened that is grossly not okay and not okay to them because they care. So when we look at values, the word value in English, because I also worked in business school and I use these principles there in Notre Dame business school, and when we use the word value in business, what they understand is the value chain as the profit that occurs in different steps of production. Unfortunately, that's the interpretation because we use the same words. And when we work for cultural transformation, almost every culture says that. In my culture, these are the values. And what they mean is, these are the norms of my culture. So I'll give you an example. I was working with the National Park Services in the US and we were in Alaska. And this group, somebody said that people in the rest of the US don't understand our values. They are contradicting our values. So I sat with the lady and I asked her, what are your values? So he says, the first value is that whenever there is a huge storm, we will always take care of our children and protect them first. I said, that is a value called caring. He said, our second is to put all old people in the storm first, take care of them. I said, that's universal. Then he said, you know, our third value is reverence for animals. He says, you know, we eat because we don't have vegetables. We eat, but we don't go and ask, is the steak made rare or medium? For us, an animal has given up their life. So we pray, we thank the animal, we kill the animal humanely. We give water before that. We know that someone's given up their life for us to live. We have gratitude. We have gratitude. I said, yes, that's universal. He said, our fourth value is that our oldest son must be a good hunter. I said, you know what? Imagine you go and you go to a country where everybody is vegetarian. Will they be holding that value? She said, no. I said, then it's not a value. It's a cultural norm. It's like women cover their head in a village with a cloth in India, in rural India, or women wear a hijab in parts of the Arab states. These are not values. These are cultural norms that that particular society wants. Unfortunately, Ben, we are so attached to some of these cultural norms that we are even willing to fight for it. We are willing to kill for it. I mean, like how women dress, for example. So to me, distinguishing what a value chain is from real values, as you and I understand it, distinguish it from cultural norms, which is how people understand it, that is important for you and me to deepen the conversation as you do. And that's where we begin. We begin by having people either think about an incident or even say, what do you work about? What do you work on? So let me ask you that question, and you can Ask me the same question. What do you generally work on? I know that, but just say it for the listeners. What do you work on?

Ben Owden

Yeah, I think, as I mentioned earlier to you, right. Where our mission, really, what gets me going every day is to live in a world where people love to go to work, where, you know, Mondays are as exciting as Fridays. And a big part of that is us working with our clients to create a kind of culture where people can bring their full selves. The true. And I think sometimes there's a tendency to people say, we don't want your full self. But I think when. When the way that we understand your full self is the entire spectrum of your humanity. Right. And I love how you, in your book, you go. You go. You go back to, you know, let's remove all the noise, let's remove all the different iteration of who we are that have happened. As, you know, it's a chain reaction of all the bad things that have happened in life. And let's go back to the core at the, you know, origin. Who are we? And I think for us, that that's what we do. We try to basically say, okay, and I love the distinction that you made around, you know, what's a cultural norm and what's a value? Because sometimes with values, people feel like. I feel like I am leaving who I am at the door when I walk into this place. But when organizations actually develop values that are universal. Just a few days ago, we worked with a client and they had five values. And we said, actually, some of these are not values. Right. And so we shrunk the list to three. And those three were universal. Those three, someone can take that and apply that in their marriage, in their. How they're raising their kids, in how they engage with their community. And so that's what we do.

Dr. Monica Sharma

Yeah. So listening to you, I would say, I think, Ben, what you stand for is full potential, and what you stand for is humanity, the humanity in each of us. And so you talked about the principle of value applies to everybody, everywhere. The value is the foundation, the anchor of who I am being, whether I'm at home, at work, or with my friends, who I am being. And it's the only anchor in a rapidly changing world. In one of the studies in business that was done In, I think, 2008 or 10, one of the big things that business CEO said around the world is their biggest challenge today is rapid change. Change is so rapid. What's the anchor when rapid. There is rapid change? It's who I am, what I stand for, because that remains with me. Whether I am working on AI or I'm working on the Internet, or I'm farming or it doesn't matter. That's who I am. So who I am, that value, that foundation is a space of fulfillment, and that you bring that in is beautiful. So, yes, behind that practical application is a profound set of values that your organization works with and every individual of your organization works with.

Ben Owden

Yeah. And saying that reminds me of. So we have, as an organization widely, we have three core values. And one of them, and, you know, if there's a hierarchy, this is probably the first one is Ubuntu Kwanzaa, which, you know, those are. There's a Bantu and Swahili word Ubuntu, I am because we are. And then Kwanzaa being first. Yeah.

Dr. Monica Sharma

So.

Ben Owden

And the way that we define it is that treating all as ends never means and working to create win win outcomes for all earthlings. Right. So everyone. And you know, one of the people who work for the organization chose to work with us because of this value. They said, I felt dignified in all of my interactions and dealings with you. And which reminds me of, you know, in your book, you said that the three universal values that anchor equitable and sustainable transformation are dignity, equity, and compassion. And they all come from our inherent oneness. And if these are, you know, again, universal, if at the very core of who we are inherently, you know, we can all operate, we all understand what it means to, you know, to be dignified, to operate in an equitable world and to have compassion. And you just give an example of children, no one teaches them to have compassion. It's just a natural response that they have. But when we look around in the world that we live in today, the world that's divided, the words that's, you know, it's pitting people against each other. And I think if we use social media as a proxy for this, we can see very clearly how you can almost feel like everyone is fighting with everyone. Right. Even right now, if you look in America with the fires that are happening, there's compassion, but also there's people who are saying, it's the Democrats fault, it's this person's fault.

Dr. Monica Sharma

Exactly.

Ben Owden

So what gets in the way? If inherently we can all resonate, we can all connect, we can all understand these three core values. Dignity, equity, and compassion. What usually gets in the way that we move away from who we inherently are?

Dr. Monica Sharma

I think, Ben, it's a complex question. And in my view, what has us move away is the way we rear our children and our family norms. In most cultures there is an elitism that gets unconsciously imbued in children as they are reared. And there are many examples. We can take stories like there was one person from Nepal and he was 4 years old and he went and he played with children on the street and the children were from different castes. When he came home, he was thrashed for playing with children from a different caste. And you said when you talked about Paul Robeson and racism in the U.S. india, where I was born is a very caste biased society. It's hugely, the discrimination is based on caste. So then that four year old child learns it. So the first is the way we bring up our children and the way we interpret each other's actions in the family. The second is our educational system. And third today is media, perhaps media more than anything else. You look at the video games that children play, it's about killing something or the other. And so we are sort of etching and normalizing behaviors that are not so and it's not that. So to me, there are forces we've put in place. And then someone said that one of our biggest problems is addiction to comfort. Addiction to a sense of, you know, like we want comfortable life, we want status. So the question is we've built symbols of status in different cultures. Whether it's through the way we conduct weddings, whether it's the way we have vacation, whether it's the way we say, oh, we need to have our private jets and the way we need to organize our material comforts. So to me, it's a various set of factors. It's also a missing. These are things that contribute to it. There's a missing our, you know, our connection with nature that our ancestors had. It's so missing in the urban domains that we live in. And we are not able to have our young be with the natural world in a way that stimulates them. And young children are full of wonder. They love adventure. So our adventures are no longer a union with nature. They are not life enhancing adventures, not life enhancing recreation. Too much of recreation has become material in a lot of place. It's linked with alcohol, drugs and different aspects of behaviors that are not life sustaining or life enhancing is more like it.

Ben Owden

Yeah, so, and you know, I'm glad that you've highlighted the complexity of how we got here and the different aspects, I guess to the problem and we'll talk about that. This idea of, you know, complex problems and how we can go at it. But back to this idea you know, these universal values, right? There's something that you say as well in the book where you say there are committed people who work on changing exploitative systems in order to find solutions, but they rarely explore the most powerful and enduring asset of human beings, radical inner capacities and the universal values. And so I started thinking about this and I asked my questions, like why pursue universal values? And in that train of thought, I came to the realization that values can be equally powerful at uniting as they can be at excluding and dividing, depending on what sort of values a person chooses. Right? And I think if we look at the different sects and groups in the world, whether be it racists, whether it be extreme capitalists who exploit, they are driven by some sort of values that make sense in that world. And so when I started asking, I realized for the three values, right, dignity, equity and compassion. If someone wants to serve, I guess humanity, then it's a no brainer, so to speak. But what if someone is serving their own self interest? What if someone is serving shareholders or investors? And so I think thinking through all of this right to live in this world that you talk about, maybe we probably need to start thinking of a hierarchy of who, of who, of what do we serve or who do we serve? Because if as corporations, if all we stop and end our shareholders, then it will make sense to operate in the way that most businesses operate. But I think going back to the example of Patagonia, it's clear that at the top of that hierarchy of who they serve, shareholders are not at the top of that list. They are part of the list, but they're not at the top. Right? And so how. So if in all the work that you've done with different organizations, groups, governments, the examples and the models that you've seen that embody these three universal values in how they show up in the world, who do they serve? Who's at the top of that list of who they serve?

Dr. Monica Sharma

You've brought up one of the most important issues of why the finance world runs the way it does is citizens who are shareholders and people who are in business. I mean, many of these businesses have their staff to be shareholders. So I'll share an example and I'll share what that means and values. So ultimately, Ben, it's really what we deeply care about. We are not going to take this wealth when we die. And we don't live our life with happiness simply because we have money. We know that. We know that mental illness has become a major issue in wealthy countries. Major issue and everywhere else, perhaps but we know about that. So there is a gentleman, Brad Mills, he was the CEO of lonmind, which is the second or third largest platinum mining company in South Africa. And he is a man who cares. He's no longer there. And I worked initially at that time with him and he uses the same approach as you do, as I do. And he said that I made safety of the miners the most important thing. And what he did was the miners would die because the equipment, the rail tracks under the mines were not safe. He wanted investment in that and he did. He invested in the families around so that there was education, health care and all the basic services instead of just what people don't care about the families around of the miners. He said the biggest obstruction came from shareholders. And it wasn't the board, it wasn't the board of the company, it wasn't the business groups, it was the shareholder. In this work, we say responsible citizenship is vital. The good news, Ben, is that there was a model built by a researcher called Zai and many others. And the model shows that if 10% of any group shifts, so let's say 10% within a business group, one company, a 10% within the alliance of a group, others will start following. There's something in the human spirit that knows that that's where we need to go. Organizing that in practical ways, organizing the flows of money is yet another space. So yes, the attitude of the shareholder that I'm willing to give up X percent of my profit in order to serve Earth, in order to serve the workers, the dignity of labor is vital. So you are bringing up a core issue. So here is what. There are companies now where the shareholders are more mature, where they have laid down some. I think that's an important domain to work with shareholders that are part of a company's investment. In fact, that whole thing, you know, someone said it's not venture capital, it's vulture capital, you know, so it's like saying, it's so extractive, it's so extractive. So you brought that up the shareholder and the investor. Yeah, And I think we are seeing some changes in investments. So I'll give you a microfinance example. So we know that microfinance, the way that Mohammed Yunus implemented it in Bangladesh is great. And he had social parameters. A woman must own property, girls must get education. People need. So he had 10 social indicators. But that's not how microfinance is put through. We know that microfinance has devastated groups, and yet we continue. So there are some innovators and investors who say, you know what, we are not going to invest in microfinance. We are going to invest in a grant that moves forward. That means you give a grant to a particular startup, and when the startup makes money, the startup gives some grant to another person starting up. So that's Ubuntu in action, actually. And so you let it flow, but it flows differently. And it doesn't flow like, let's pay back a loan, let's pay back a loan. Women pay back loans and they, at community level, they pay back over 95, sometimes 98% of loans, even when they are in hardship. But we forgive loans of huge banks and huge companies. There's something in our rules of the game that means to change.

Ben Owden

You mentioned transforming the rules of the game. And I think, which brings me to this idea of a conscious full spectrum response that you talk about there, right? And you talk about three components. Solving the problem, shifting unworkable norms and systems and sourcing our innate wisdom, right? As parts of what form this conscious full spectrum response, Solving the problem, shifting unworkable norms and, and systems and sourcing our innate wisdom. And so in your experience, because you talk about this framework and methodology in your book and its application in your work around the world, of these three, which one is the hardest to implement? Is it solving the problem? Is it shifting unworkable norms and systems or sourcing our innate wisdom?

Dr. Monica Sharma

So I want to clarify two things, Ben. First. So when I mean innate wisdom, I don't mean it in the way that's usually put in anthropological literature. I don't mean it like what does tradition say? What I mean is innate universal values. So I prefer to use that because many people say, oh, indigenous wisdom or the wisdom of the elders that say women are not the same as men. No, that's not wisdom. That is traditional. So I would say it's an unbreakable hole. So it's not that one is more difficult than the other to implement. It is that we are habitually educated to focus on fixing a problem. So let's say it's hunger. So if you have hunger, we say just give food or find a soup kitchen, or give ration or then subsidize foods of certain groups. So the question is that our reaction is, here is a problem, we need to fix it. Should we fix it? Of course we must. But if we only focus on food, on the problem itself, we will never be able to solve that genre of problems because the foundation that's giving rise to the problem remains. It will show up in different ways. And it shows up in small things and in huge things. So let me take a small example. Small is not the right word in a. In a more discrete way. So let's take something like food. So should we be giving food in schools when children are hungry? The answer is yes. Will that solve the problem of malnutrition in children? The answer is no. Just having one meal is vital for them. A fresh meal, cooked meal, not a highly processed biscuit, which is what is being pushed down schools. So the question is, will it partially solve the problem? So it's a partial solution. And then there are examples of how we kind of address the system, but we don't really act on anything. So there are people who say we need to actually shift the way subsidies are given for farming that's based on fossil fuel because that is subsidized, whereas organic farming is not. So is that important? Of course it is. But only doing that doesn't solve the issue of food and hunger. So the question is then, where do we source what we should shift? We source it in what we deeply care about. So to me, the difficulty is in the way we have felt that technological solutions will solve all problems of humanity, and it doesn't. That's the difficulty, is the mindset that says solving the problem technologically is the only answer. And you and I know that human beings are not robots. They are not technological machines. They are humans who care. They are humans who want to work, like you said, want to wake up on Monday morning and go to work and contribute. So we need to embrace that dimension. That dimension requires two things. Just to use your example of work. It requires me to do something at work. It requires me to shift the culture in the organization so that I value the human being who's contributing. And then I need to be able to be a different person based on who I really am and what I care about in my workplace. So the difficulty lies in thinking that technical solutions is what we face. Take climate action. We knew 95% of the solutions 60 years ago. And why is it burning today? We know that carbon trading is not a viable solution. We know that, and yet we promote it because we are attached to the money. So the most difficult aspect of the conscious full spectrum response is the milieu in which individuals work in a space or the companies work in a culture which is shifting. It's the only way we will survive.

Ben Owden

I think as we are sort of approaching the end of our conversation, something else that I want to focus on and I think what I really wanted to talk about is this rather personally, I think the value that I got from your book is that it's sort of like provided me with the right tools and frameworks to look in the mirror and assess myself. Right. Because it's. I control what I can do and how I show up and how I contribute to the world. And in the book as well, you highlight six steps to knowing who I am. I think this idea of know thyself is a, you know, it's a very popular idea. Most people talk about it, but you provide like a six step guide on knowing yourself, right. So, and you talk about things like, you know, discovering who you are and what you stand for, articulating what you stand for and saying it, knowing your fears, transcending your fears, commitment through action and, you know, creating platforms for others to source inner capacities for action and results. And so in your experience, doing the work that you do, how impactful this guide has been with the leaders and the change agents that you've worked with.

Dr. Monica Sharma

You know, the guide came much later. The action on the ground came first. So for me, it is more like that's what I experienced, Ben, when I worked worldwide. It's, that's how people connect. So when you look at the six steps, connecting with who I am is what you do, is what you said about your company's first principle and how somebody said, that's why I joined your company, because it speaks to me. So we know that there's a dimension in every human being. And I have worked in very difficult situations. Every human being where their actions are not based on equity and dignity for all. When they touch the space, something emerges from them, unfolds from them. And then. So this is about knowing who I am and this is about also being able to speak it. Because what we know, and this is called speech action theory, is when we declare something from deep within. And we know that in media, when we speak, we begin change, speak authentically. Those are the first two steps. The second is there are fears that we've been socialized into. I don't mean the fears that are present when there is killing or physical threat. That's different fears that our phobias are different fears of a child that's being bullied in school is a real fear that needs to be addressed in all our schools worldwide. Children bully other children, which is devastating for that child. And teachers punish in a way that's not enhancing. So we know that socialized fears are what we operate from, almost like our default. So knowing that for Example, the fear of making a mistake, the fear of being misunderstood, the fear of being ridiculed. The fear of. And I'm not talking about loss and death. The socialized fears, fears that you are not good enough, I'm not good enough. These are worldwide, and I've worked with them worldwide. When I know that and I can identify it, I can transcend it. And how do I transcend it? I don't cut off that fear. I just let it be and release it by getting back to my greatness, what I stand for, and that's what releases the fear. And when I create a culture that is not fearful at work, I'm at my full potential. The only one who never makes a mistake is the one who's never tried to work. Mistake is part of it all. But we learn from them. And then there are two others, that it is not just about personal transformation. It's how you work, Ben. It's about applying my personal transformation first. Like you said in Ubuntu, it's first I need to be the humility. So I always say it's not the arrogance of knowledge, it's the humility of wisdom that allows me to look at myself constantly and narrow gaps instead of judging myself. So, yeah, I commit to action and results. And then I know in Ubuntu, I cannot make it out alone. I have to be with others. So I create platforms like you do for others, and that's what everyone else does. So thank you for asking about the six steps that work that has, you know, worldwide, just in one program, we reached 140 million people. Yeah, it works.

Ben Owden

Something else. So, you know, I think initially I mentioned that there's the one. One question that I'll ask, and I'll ask that in a bit, but before I get to that question, there's something that I have been curious about. There's a. I don't know. I'm sure you're familiar with Angela Duckworth. She has a book called Grit. And what she talks about in the book is this idea that in her experience, especially working with children, one of the top attributes that are responsible for someone's success later in life is not so much intelligence and things that maybe we have been trained or socialized to believe they are, but actually grit. That idea, this quality of being resilient, this quality of being proactive and not relenting, is the reason why most people are successful. And I think you shared with me that you are on a commitment to work with committed people, change leaders around the world, and you know, you've done so I would like to believe, successfully up until this point, you've not necessarily reached your goal, but you've surpassed, I think, the halfway point. And so in all the people that you've worked with, these change champions, these people who are committed to all the different causes, be it personal or maybe communal, what would you say is the one quality they all share?

Dr. Monica Sharma

I distinguish grit as more as a resilience, as you said, that can be cultivated. The quality that I believe that everybody shares is a strong sense of dignity and oneness that then to manifest requires grit and resilience. That means that I have that quality. So I want to distinguish qualities that are more about how I operate from qualities that are about who I am. Knowing who I am is to me, the. The beginning of unfolding. It's like a bud that becomes the rose, you know, the lotus flower that un. For that moves. It is that space. And in that space, I completely agree, grit and resilience are vital.

Ben Owden

I love that distinction. Right. How versus who you are. Yeah. And so now to our question, right? This is a question that we ask all of the guests who have conversation on this podcast, which is the 1. 1.

Dr. Monica Sharma

1.

Ben Owden

Right. If you could go back in time, what is the one book that you've read that was, you know, had such an impact in your life that you say, I wish I had a copy of this much, you know, earlier in my life. And then what is the one habit that you started practicing, maybe later in life that you wish you had started much earlier? And then what is the one personal value? And I know we've referenced the three values, but what is the one personal value that you will not compromise, no matter the cost?

Dr. Monica Sharma

So the first is, I wish I had read Emotional Intelligence. That book by Daniel Goldman was available. We were taught in medical school that, you know, the smarter the child, the more successful. And you are, you know that that's not it. So, yeah, emotional intelligence, a habit. I would say meditation. You know, I started meditation later than. Than I. Yeah. Later in life. And what's wonderful is that it's taught in schools today. There are many young people I've met who meditate regularly, which is wonderful. And you asked about the value. I think the value I really resonate with is oneness, which is manifest. And I won't compromise dignity, football, dignity and respect, which is, to me a piece of. Of embracing everyone as oneness.

Ben Owden

Wow, thank you. That's beautiful. So we have basically come to the end of our conversation, hopefully, just for now, so before I think maybe do you have any final thoughts for our audience based on the conversation? Of course we highly recommend to everyone to read the book. We'll put a link the book in the description of this episode. But any final thoughts that you would like to share with the audience?

Dr. Monica Sharma

So the first I think thought I would have is to know the joy of doing this work. It's not a burden. You know, there is something, you know, all of us humans have a backpack full of problems and you know, I wish that hadn't happened. You know, why did baggage as we call it, our backpack is quite heavy. So I would say the practices of this, you know, working this way at home with our own children, with our families, with our friends, with our workplace, the joy of working in a conscious, full spectrum way is the first, I would say the second is that I think there is something in us that wants to be excellent. Not top of anything, but just excellent. So like I want to be an excellent tennis player, then I at least practice. So there's a big difference between intellectual engagement with justice and being justice. And you brought up the NGO movement. You know, when you look look at Paul Hawkins work blessed unrest. There are 2 million NGOs he has recorded and yet we know that we haven't had the kind of influence and I believe the next movement for next mobilization, whether it's within business or the activist world, is going to have activism grounded in being the values rather than only talking about the values, embodying the values. So that requires practice. So the first thing is knowing its joy, unburdening it. The next is it's practice. And the third is having a result that is our like the guiding star, whatever that is that involves self and some others, whether it's other people or nature or other animals or whatever. There are animal rights activists who work this way.

Ben Owden

Well, that was beautifully put. Thank you so much, Dr. Monica, for making the time for having this conversation with me and for sharing all of these insights and the wisdom that you've cultivated over the course of your life and career with our audience. So thank you so much. And to our audience, this has been the Y lead podcast. I am your host, Ben Owden.

Dr. Monica Sharma

This podcast is brought to you by WhyLead Consultancy. We are dedicated to helping organizations develop leaders who inspire conviction, commitment and congruence. If your organization wants to develop leaders worth following, please email us at yoda@whyleadothers.com or visit our website at www.whyleadothers.com.