0070 - Master Any Skill: The Ultimate Guide to Learning How to Learn ft Barbara Oakley

Dive into a journey of transformation with Barbara Oakley, from struggling with basic math to becoming a renowned engineering professor, and discover the secrets to mastering any skill. This episode isn't just a story; it's a blueprint for turning your biggest challenges into your greatest strengths. Barbara shares groundbreaking insights on the neuroscience of learning, the power of habits, and the crucial role of sleep in mastering new skills. Whether you're looking to overhaul your learning strategy, enhance your leadership skills, or simply find more meaning in your daily tasks, Barbara's insights will guide you to a more enlightened path. Don't miss the chance to unlock the genius within you. Tune in and transform the way you think, learn, and lead.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

So you don't want to say, yeah, I'm going to read 20 books this year. You want to say, every day I'm going to read for 20 minutes. And you know, kind of break it down into something like that. My big goal is to do something. You know, uh some daily habit. That habit is what is going to build and lead long term. So one uh one wonderful paper I read on uh neural schemas and developing expertise said that in essence uh you become motivated about what you want to learn when you're good at it. But some things take longer to get good at. So when you're learning, at first you may feel I'm just not very good at this stuff, and it's very demotivating. But if you just continue, if you make it into a habit of you're going to do something every day, whether or not you're a bad learner, whether or not you're good at it or whatever, and you just keep doing it over time, over time you start getting better. And then because you're getting better, your motivation naturally begins to increase. So at first, it's a good thing to just make it a habit, no matter how good or bad you are at something, you just do it every day for 20 minutes or whatever you are. Um, and then motivation really does develop about what you're good at. And just remember, some things take longer to get good at. So set up habits of small daily chunks, and that will be invaluable for you in being successful at what you want to be doing.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

I have curated some of the best thinker practitioners from all over the world to help you get to your leadership in the final. So stay tight. Let's go on this channel together. Greetings to you. I hope you are doing well and I'm having a productive and meaningful day. Welcome to another episode of the Why Lead Podcast. I'm your host, Ben Odin. Now, have you ever wondered how people actually learn? Or maybe let me ask a personal question. Do you know how to learn? Now, in a world of abundant knowledge, uh, it seems learning how to learn should be a critical skill for all of us. And today we'll be exploring this particular subject. And so to have this conversation, I am joined by a professor of engineering at Auckland University in Rochester, Michigan, and a Ramon E. Cajal, distinguished scholar of global digital learning at MacAstor University. Um, her research involved bioengineering with an emphasis on neuroscience and cognitive psychology. Now, alongside neuroscientist Terence Sejinowski, uh Dr. Oakley teaches two massive open online courses, uh, Learning How to Learn and the World's Most Popular Course and Mind Shift, the World's Most Popular Course in Mind Shift, the companion course to her most uh to one of her books, um to actually to her most recent book of the same title. Um, ladies and gentlemen, Barbara Oakley. Barbara, welcome to the platform.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Oh, thank you for having me here, Ben. I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Now, from someone, and this is, you know, when I was doing research on your story, uh, from someone who earlier in their life failed, you know, at math mathematics, and then now someone looks at you. So if someone was to time travel to when you are younger and you know, struggling in math, and then suddenly uh 2023 and you're an engineering professor, you know, it's two sides that can be confusing. How did one go from here to this? So I guess uh my question is how how did you go from being someone who's struggling in math to being a renowned professor, you know, in engineering? Um and what throughout this journey, what did this particular experience and this shift from having uh little competence in this subject that most people loathe in the world? Uh most people, when they speak about you know, struggling in school, it's mostly math or physics or anything to do with numbers. Um so how did you transition from not having competence to being um a very successful you know engineering professor? And what has this experience taught you about learning?

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Oh, so much. Um so I really, I mean, I really hated math and science when I was growing up, and I was terrible at them. Um and the thing is, when I graduated from high school, I thought, well, what can I do in my life? And since I knew I could never do anything technical because I'd always flunked those subjects before and didn't even like them, I thought, well, I I would like to learn another language. And I know for most people around the world, many, many, many people speak more than one language. And uh but in the US at that time, that just wasn't really a thing. And so I just thought, oh, wouldn't that be cool to look at the world and be able to think in from a different language perspective? So I enlisted in the army out of high school and I went to the Defense Language Institute and I randomly picked a language, I picked Russian and learned it really well. Um, but I when I went to get out of the military when I was in my later 20s, I found out that just following my passion wasn't good enough. That actually many of my friends who were engineering, um, they'd gotten degrees in engineering from West Point, they could easily get jobs, but nobody was looking to hire my my back, someone with my background in Slavic languages and literature. So I thought, well, you know, I like adventure, I like new perspectives. So why don't I see if I can try a new perspective of the brain and see if I can learn in math and science, even though I'm in my later 20s. So I went to the university and took a few courses and just was very, very slow and deliberate. I started at the rock bottom level with remedial high school algebra and slowly began working my way upwards. It was not easy, but if I'd known then what I know now about learning, I could have made it so much easier on myself. But part of the magic was that I applied a lot of the same language learning techniques I'd learned at the Defense Language Institute to learning in math and science, and lo and behold, it helped me to be successful. So I became fascinated by, you know, how do we really learn? What is changing in our brains when we're learning? Um, and how is learning in math and science different than learning in the humanities and social sciences? And how is it the same? It turns out that you know having a good language learning background can really help you be successful in learning in math and science. So that's what uh a student asked me once, uh, one of my engineering students, how did you change your brain? And I thought, well, how did I? And I wrote a book about that um called A Mind for Numbers. And uh I mean, I don't I didn't get to pick the name of the book, the publisher picks it. And so I when I heard the title A Mind for Numbers, I thought, well, that book is gonna go nowhere fast because it's the most boring title for a book you could ever imagine. But it sold over a million copies worldwide. People really find it helpful when they're trying to learn how to learn effectively. And so anyway, that's what got me started um thinking about learning and trying to help others in learning. And uh and that's why I'm here today.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

And I think, you know, speaking of you know, a mindful numbers and then how to learn like a pro, right? That's uh a different book of yours. So why did you feel like you had to write the how to learn like a pro book?

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Because the the book of mind for numbers is really a personal journey story, and it also gives insight into the neuroscience and um cognitive psychology of how we learn. But in the 10 years since that book came out, there's also many other ideas. And so Learn Like a Pro is a book that tackles learning from a different angle altogether. It just says, okay, if you want to know the latest, greatest, most insightful in a very short period of time, this is the book for you. It's it's just a uh very short, very quick, but very much to the point. So each book has complementary ideas, uh, and they they tackle learning from a bit of a different way. And I think each one is of value.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Um, I definitely think so too. And I and I and I, you know, it's I think it's a it's a must-read book for anyone who is interested in learning. And you know, and a large majority of our audiences are leaders, and there's that, you know, JFK quote, you know, leadership and learning are indispensable to each other. So we always encourage learning. So I think for anyone who's interested in learning, lifelong learning, it's definitely, I would definitely encourage them to read both of your books. Now, when you talk about learning at whatever level, whether you know, for people who are younger, uh school, people who are working and you know, trying to incorporate learning in their life, sometimes there's this tendency to wish you were some sort of a genius. Like, oh, if only I was just, you know, high IQ, I was a genius. Maybe all of this actually would be simple and easy for me. But actually, something interesting that uh, you know, I came across in your um, I'm not sure if this was in the book or it's in something you've said before. Uh, but you know, you were speaking of um Santiago Ramon and uh how he speaks of almost like the advantages of not being a genius, right? Particularly how people who are naturally competent or they can develop competency very simply and naturally tend to be inflexible. Uh, and how you know flexibility, of course, in we know in the world we live in today that requires agility and because of all the complexity, and how actually not being a genius can be a good thing. Uh and we should appreciate that as well. So, can you speak on that a little bit? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Oh, I'm delighted to. Well, Santiago Ramoni Cajal is really my the person I admire most in science. Um, and part of the reason I admire him was because I I mean he was something of a clown um as far as he he really struggled to learn. And he was uh he clearly had all indications uh when he was growing up in the late 1800s or mid-1800s, he had all the indications of uh attention deficit disorder, many of the indications of dyslexia. Um, this was a guy who just struggled so much. He he just flunked out of elementary school because he couldn't pay attention. And his father would even bring him into schools, and there he's like begging them to please take his son. And he's like, you know, he he's not gonna be able to memorize things the way that that's how people learned in those days, was it was thought that memorization was the only way to really learn things things. And what his father told the teachers was, you know, my son can he can learn, but he just grasps the key ideas. That's all he can do, and he's pretty slow at it, but but he can get that. And sure enough, um uh Santiago moved forward. He he kind of was a miserable failure until he was close to 20. And then he decided that he wanted to become a doctor like his dad. And this was because his dad took him out to the graveyards and they they dug up bones and he got his hands on bones to uh begin to understand anatomy. So do not try this at home in order to motivate yourself. But he he got interested and he took a test um ultimately to become a professor of anatomy and he flunked it. Had it, took it again the next year, flunked it, and had one final try and passed. And eventually he uh his his way, what he did was he really looked through a microscope at what was going on with neurons and in the brain. And and he looked very, very carefully, and he didn't like make a hypothesis and about what was happening like many did at the time and and sort of find ways to support his own hypothesis. He would instead just make a hypothesis, and if it was wrong, he would change his mind. So later, uh, so he won the Nobel Prize and is now considered the father of modern neuroscience. And he was asked, well, how did you um, you know, um, how'd you become such a great genius? And he was like, I am not a genius. You know, he struggled to remember things. It was really hard for him to learn. But he said, I have worked with many geniuses, and the challenge with geniuses is they they learn so quickly that they jump to conclusions, and when they're wrong, they can't change their mind. And so uh so because he was a slower learner, he could actually, you know, he'd look at things and when he was wrong, he could acknowledge he was wrong and then change his mind. And that's actually an important part of leadership as well. Um, not to just keep driving forward with your own ideas. Um, my uh a friend of mine uh sometimes calls this getting on the train to Abilene. So Abilene is was at one time in the US sort of a dead-end destination to nowhere. And so getting on the train, in essence, to nowhere is sometimes what leaders can do because they'll say, Oh, I've got this great idea. And everybody around them knows it's not really that good of an idea, but they will keep going on this train to nowhere, and that can actually be a problem for the company because of their inflexibility. So I think of learning, an important aspect of learning and of life in general is that ability to be flexible. And if you are a slower learner who really struggles, you probably are more flexible in what you're doing. So you can in the end do better than those who learn super fast.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

And I guess how can we, you know, now there's this uh I guess movement to encourage people to unleash their own genius and tapping into your own genius. And for those who are naturally able to develop competency very quickly, you know, I want to learn a new skill, but I can get it done very quickly. Um, you know, you have to come up with ideas of people who are just quick. So for for that group, uh or for people who are aiming to get to that point where it's easy for them. And I think, you know, learning how to learn, I think if you master this skill, you might come off as a genius to a lot of people because you're you have you know you know how to create the right environment and to take the right steps to learn things quicker than you know you did before. So for people who are either on that journey or they are living in that extra, you know, sort of reality, how can we aim to uh you know tap into our genius, so to speak, without uh sacrificing the flexibility that comes with being slow, with you know with struggling to uh do set things? And so you're almost like your reality forces you to be flexible. So how what sort of things do we need to consider? Uh is it that we have to uh maybe uh learn to be you know more humble, so to speak? Um do we have to learn to you know cultivate diversity, diverse thinking in the people that are around us and to be you know welcoming of other people? Like what sort of things we need to do to make sure that as we are you know getting closer to a level of genius, uh whether it's through you know mastering how to learn or that's just how people were nurtured and you know were born that way, so to speak, without uh falling into this trap of you know the genius and the uh inflexible. Is there a way of defying that? Is it is it possible to be a genius and flexible? And if so, um how do we get there?

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Oh so I I know that for example in science there are geniuses who are very nurturing of young people in the way that uh uh and they're very flexible. They're also able to accept when they've had wrong ideas and they're able to change their minds. How is this? I mean, there is some evidence that if you're a really inflexible person, that you um are inflexible in many ways and it may be related to the structure of your brain, and it's pretty hard for you to change. Um so I I think the best I I'm not sure that some people can change. Um but if if you are aware that you want to keep yourself open, then the best way to do that is to listen to criticism, to keep yourself open to ideas that you think are wrong, that you think are alien to you, and to listen to those and try to learn from them and not always think you're just right. And that is often it's a painful thing to um to accept criticism and to be open to other approaches. I find sometimes, for example, in my engineering classroom, I will have some students who come in and they're like, you know, I'm 35 years old. I have a family, I flunked out of um school when I was younger. I'm trying to go through and get an engineering degree now because I think it's gonna help my family. I'm just not sure if I'm going to make it. And that is contrasted with another student who might be in my class who's like, they're really young, they're they they did everything right. They they got the um great scores on their physics and all this kind of stuff. If you contrast these two people, the one who is most likely to succeed is that older person who is really unsure of themselves because they are they are more open to changing themselves to be um successful in the class. The conky person, then when they do bad, uh for example, if they they might do badly on a test, then they'll say to me, Oh, you know, you gave a bad test. You know, they like They don't accept that there's something within themselves that they have to change. It's always someone else's fault. And um and so just thinking you're an imposter and you're a fake and it's really that what you're doing is really difficult, that you have much more possibility of success that way. So I guess just being open to your own inadequacies and accepting of that and learning to grow more comfortable with the feeling of being uncomfortable with whatever you're doing can help you in the long run to be much more successful than the you know that ordinary advice you're often given of, you know, be sure of yourself, forge ahead, uh, and uh which can, if you're forging in the wrong direction, can lead to not good things.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

Yeah, actually that's a good point. And and we'll circle back to this because I I want to bring back, you know, like what you just said, right? Things that sometimes are seen as deficiencies, you know, when you talk about ADHD and all this. Um while, and actually, when you look close enough, you see that sometimes there might be the reason as to why certain individuals are successful. So I I'd love to circle back to that at some point. Um now something else that you know you say speak about in your book, which it was encouraging to me, but at the same time, I think you know it leaves one asking lots of questions, right? You say motivation is not something uh you either have or you don't have, because I think sometimes people tend to think is motivation is this inherent thing that certain people are just inherently and intrinsically motivated. It just so happens that they are that way, and then others don't. But you actually say motivation can be created, strengthened, and maintained. And so how do we create strengthen and maintain motivation, especially motivation to learn in this you know attention deficit world we live in where every other minute there is some shiny object wanting to distract you and pull you in uh you know, into whatever that thing, so whether it's uh social media, whether it's especially people in the workplace, you know, people who have the open floor setting, and there's always a conversation happening, there's something happening in the world. There's all these things that are drawing your attention. And if you lack that motivation or you're unable to maintain and sustain motivation, then you're constantly distracted. You might have your own goals, you know, learning. And we have this, we see people at the beginning of the year, uh, New Year resolution. I'm gonna read 20 books this year, I'm gonna finish that, you know, course that I started online, or I wanted to, you know, go back to school and do my you know, graduate program, whatever it is. But usually at the end of the year, when people are doing the audit, they realize, uh, I'm I'm nowhere near close. And a large group of people credit the lack of motivation as the reason they didn't successfully finish um or you know, this journey that they started. So, how do we create, strengthen, and maintain motivation, especially motivation to learn?

SPEAKER_01 25:19

So David Allen, the great productivity expert, often he says that those who are successful often are successful not because they're smarter, but because they just have good mental tricks that they've developed that they use. And I the more the older I get, the more I appreciate the fact that just a few simple mental tricks can make an enormous difference in how motivated you are, how productive you are, and how successful you are. So one of the tricks that I use is um, you know, it's sort of scrum-related. Break it down into simple, doable chunks, whatever you're doing. So you don't want to say, yeah, I'm gonna read 20 books this year. You want to say, every day I'm gonna read for 20 minutes. And you know, kind of break it down into something like that. The my big goal is to do something, uh, you know, uh some daily habit. That habit is what is going to build and lead long term. So one uh one wonderful paper I read on uh uh neural schemas and developing expertise said that in essence uh you become motivated about what you want to learn when you're good at it. But some things take longer to get good at. So when you're learning, at first you may feel I'm just not very good at this stuff, and it's very demotivating. But if you just continue, if you make it into a habit of you're going to do something every day, whether or not you're a bad learner, whether or not you're good at it or whatever, and you just keep doing it over time, over time you start getting better. And then because you're getting better, your motivation naturally begins to increase. So at first, it's a good thing to just make it a habit, no matter how good or bad at you are at something, you just do it every day for 20 minutes or whatever you are. Um, and then motivation really does develop about what you're good at. And just remember, some things take longer to get good at. So set up habits of small daily chunks, and that will be invaluable for you in being successful at what you want to be doing.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Yeah. Um, and and is this related to, you know, because you speak about the neuroscience of learning and, you know, the neural links and neuropathways. Um, so you know, maybe this would be a good time to get into that aspect. Um so is motivation related to, you know, a well-maintained and strengthened uh neural pathway or stronger neural links? Is it that the stronger your neural links are, the easier it is for you to find motivation to do something? Um, or or is there no correlation whatsoever? Um, but at the same time, I think probably this would be a good time to explain into because I think for someone who's hearing this for the first time, they have no idea, you know, what are you talking about, neural links? And so if we can start to maybe discuss the neuroscience of learning and how these neural links are formed. And when people talk about neuropathways, I think most people have probably heard of neuropathways because it's something that a lot of people who encourage learning or habits formation talk about quite a lot. But you know, I like how you explain it in the book and in some of the talks that you've uh done. So if you could explain uh to our audience um the neuroscience of learning and particularly, you know, how one forms a neural pathway in their brain and how these neural links, you know, come together in the process of learning.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

So when I was first beginning to learn like a language, and I was studying, I I sort of had this idea that it's sort of it's all mush up there and you're learning, but I really didn't know what learning actually meant. So I I just got the sense that if I repeat a bunch of times, like I've got a vocabulary list that I'm working on learning. If I repeat it a lot of times, I will somehow get it into my long-term, or I didn't even know long-term memory, but I'll get it into my head. And that's true. It's absolutely true, but I had no idea. It was all kind of like, okay, it's pudding, and I'm putting vocabulary lists into the pudding of my brain. Uh and I didn't realize that what I'm actually doing is I'm just as I'm practicing, there's these cells in your bodies, in your brain called neurons. And when you are learning something, you're simply creating a set of links between like a little group of cells. So let's say that I learned the word um zdrasje, which means hello in Russian. I'm actually getting this little cluster of neurons to sort of start sparking together when I want to remember and say that word. And so it's like that for all words that I'm learning, I'm like creating a cluster of connections. And I like to show an image sometimes of just one neuron just like talking to another neuron. And that's what's going on when you're learning. So when you the best way to learn something really deeply is to not just look at it, because what's happening is your eyes are looking, but your brain is not necessarily making those sparks happen that are the connection. The best way to learn something is to like look at what you're trying to learn and then look away and see if you can retrieve what you're trying to remember from your own mind. Not looking at the page, but retrieving from your own mind. That's what sparks that connection. And the more you spark those sets of connections, the stronger those connections get, and the more you learn. So let's say you're studying for a test. The tendency is to just look at the materials, but not to uh see if you can remember the materials and retrieve them from your own mind. And the more you're able to do that, see, that's where language learning really helped me because I knew that the only way I could learn a vocabulary list was to not be looking at the you know at the vocabulary list. So if I'm looking at one word in in English, I can't, you know, I have to see if I can retrieve the word, you know, in another language in my own mind, retrieve the Russian word, retrieve the Spanish word. And so I got a lot of practice with retrieval practice learning a language. And it turns out if you're learning how to code, for example, well, what's the algorithm you're learning? Can you retrieve that algorithm? Do you remember it so well that you can retrieve it from your own mind? Because poets will sometimes say, memorize the poem and you will understand it more deeply. But why should we let the poets have all the fun? Actually, if you're learning that algorithm and you know it by heart, as you're learning it by heart, you're kind of going, oh, and then this connects to this. Oh, and then that leads to this step in the algorithm, and you're thinking more deeply about what step is doing what, and you learn it more deeply. So retrieval practice, kind of pulling thoughts from your own memory, isn't just for silly little things like uh a term in uh anatomy or a uh a foreign language word. It also helps you think more deeply about the the deepest concepts that you're learning because you try to remember it and then you start putting together the ideas. You're you're connecting that cluster of neurons much more strongly. So that's what happens.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

And I guess what happens before this is what you call you know in internalization, right? Uh in internalizing concepts and things and allowing you to make those connections. And to a large degree, you say, you know, learning is really making these connections, uh, maybe sometimes of different concepts. Um and that can, you know, so re I guess you know what you're talking about retrieval now. Does that happen after you've internalized something, or is that a test on whether or not you've internalized something?

SPEAKER_01 35:03

It's it's kind of both at once. So here's what I mean. Um let's say that you are trying to learn how to solve a particular problem involving um let's say uh current, and you're trying to calculate electrical current flow in various parts of a circuit. So you have a problem presented to you, and then what you want to do is you want to um see if you can figure out the first step of what you do to solve that problem. And if if you can, great. If you can't, then go peek at the answer. And then you want, okay, well, now what's the next step? Oh, I can't remember that. Peek at the answer. So you may have to peek at the answer all the way along the first time you solve it. But it's learning how to solve that equation is not or something or that problem is not something you just sit there and you do one time and you turn it in as homework. It's like a song that you're learning how to sing. You would never sing a song one time and say, Oh yeah, I understand, I've got it now. I could sing that song forever. You practice with it, you you retrieve it from your mind until you've and it's just like that with problems that you're learning how to solve. Important problems, you want to try to work it through on your own. And so you're trying to retrieve it from your own brain each step, step by step, but then you're practicing so that okay, you did it once, now a couple hours later, try to do it again, and then try to do it again. And you're actually internalizing the key ideas of the how to solve that problem. Eventually, you want to be able to look at that problem and say, oh, the solution just flows like a song in your own mind. That's when it's really internalized. So the great masters of mathematics, for example, Freeman Dyson, who was like Einstein's go-to mathematician, he would do hundreds and hundreds of problems. And so it looked like he was just a genius. And he was a genius, but that genius arose because he practiced a lot. So whatever you're learning, whether it's another language or uh programming or marketing skills or uh whatever you're learning, you just you want to pick key ideas, internalize them by practicing a lot of times, and then you'll begin to see that oh, those key ideas are useful in many different uh related aspects of problem solving or uh or understanding the new discipline that I'm becoming an expert in.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

And I think so. I mean, when you look at it from that point of view, and and I agree with that view, because I think I've seen it work in my own life, is that the more I am able to internalize, and I, you know, because I a big part of my life is speaking uh in front of people. And whenever I internalize what I'll be speaking about, and you know, I make sure that I can communicate that message without having to look at my you know manuscript, the more I am able to connect with an audience, the more because it's the message, it's like you become the message to a large degree. So I've seen it work, um, even you know, in something as simple as speaking. Uh but speaking is totally not simple.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

So you do it so well, and you are so right that internalization of the key ideas is integral to becoming a great speaker.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Yeah. So, you know, looking at that process and where we're heading with you know artificial intelligence and how some of us are almost outsourcing our thinking to AI, you know, which means sometimes if not done right, and I don't know if it's even possible, you know, that internalization is almost sacrificed along the way because you don't have to retrieve it. You don't have to, you just you know, you just have to remember maybe this prompt that you give the AI, you know, platform system and it does all the work on your behalf. And but of course, not to be anti-AI, but I think how do you know of any useful approaches um right now, thinking of artificial intelligence and you know, and and and and this learning process so that we make sure that you know artificial intelligence becomes a tool that aids us versus completely disrupting, you know, in a negative way how we learn. And then people just get comfortable with taking the shortcuts that actually in the long run this it sabotages true and meaningful learning uh that involves actually internalizing the knowledge, the practice, the skill, the discipline that you're trying to learn.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

What a perceptive question. And I think the answer is embedded in the way that you phrase that question. And and what I mean is that you're very aware of the problems as well as the advantages of AI. So let's just take a step back and look at what happened to IQ scores in the world between 1930 and 1970. So there's something called the Flynn effect, and that is that they um one very perceptive researcher noticed that actual IQ scores were climbing between the 1930s and the 1970s. They they really increased quite markedly. And obviously, it can't be genetics so quick. Um, it it probably isn't just better access to food. What what it was thought was that that had to do with better educational opportunities, that that having better educational opportunities help make people smarter. They actually lifted their IQ scores. But here's the interesting thing. Recent research has shown since 1970, IQ scores have been declining on average. Why would that? If it's if it's education is increasing RIQs beforehand, well then it seems like education probably has to do with the decline. What happened in 1970? Ah, that's when calculators became widely available. And educators started saying, oh, you don't need to remember things, you can always look stuff up. And so there was a very there was a sea change in education in many um countries that that build their the basis for their educational systems off of Western approaches to learning, not Asian approaches, but Western approaches. And uh it's there's some reasonably good evidence that just when you get that idea of, oh, I can outsource my thinking to something else, uh, I don't need to memorize the multiplication tables, for example, anymore. My children don't need to, then actually you're you're not challenged intellectually. They've researchers noticed that even within a single family, the kids that were younger um they had lower IQs than the kids that were older in that 1970s break. Um, and so it it very much has to do with the educational system and how you learn. And so I think what will happen, and what is beginning to happen now, is that um educators are beginning to learn that oh no, we can't outsource um teaching phonics. We must teach phonics to help students learn how to read, and we can't outsource learning the multiplication tool. Because when we do, kids don't learn as effectively. And so I think what's going to happen now with AI is that those who will say, oh yeah, let's take the easy way out. We don't need to educate kids to learn grammar and those kinds of things, those kids will have uh a lesser education. And in 40, 50 years, researchers will say, you know, there's there's a problem with the the students that grew up in that era. And uh and we have to change things. So if you are a perceptive person now, um you can take the advice that you've just given, Ben, and and make sure that your kids are learning the fundamentals regardless of whether AI can do them or not. And um and that will be beneficial. But for you and me, Ben, it's it's fine. We've already got those foundations ourselves, so we can use the advantages that AI is giving us. And uh, and so I enjoy AI a lot. It really helps me with my learning. And uh, but I think just be aware for your kids to make sure that they get those foundations.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Well, thank you. That's quite useful, actually. Um, without the foundation, then it can be a tool that um destroys someone's um, I guess, intelligence, especially if they are somehow in a situation where the aid is no longer available.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Um so very, very you're not you're not laying those neural pathways. And so when you don't lay them early on, the it's it gets harder and harder to lay them as you uh uh you know, the older you get. But it's not impossible because I'm a living example of um, you know, I I did learn when I was later, but it's just harder to do.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

Yeah. Yeah. Something else that you speak about, which you've mentioned here as well, it's you know, this idea of active learning. Um, and you say, you know, when you're learning, it's important to you know learn actively, making your brain work hard or think hard. Uh, don't just look at a problem solution. Instead, actively work on the problem yourself or try to remember the main pain points for you know from whatever form of consumption which you're using to learn. And then specifically you say the mental effort you spend will help pull spines out toward the accent so that strong neural links can form, which is something that you know you've mentioned even in the course of this conversation. Now, in today's world where people are so busy, passive learning is encouraged quite a lot. You know, take a walk and listen to an audiobook. Um, you know, as you're doing dishes or making dinner, you know, you're watching a masterclass. Uh so you know, just passive learning where people, you know, it's in the background uh as you're doing something else. Uh and it's interesting because I think at one point, you know, you you say uh when you multitask, you become stupid, you know, it's time as you add on more things to your plate. So, but then this concept of hedonic adaptation, meaning, you know, do something you enjoy and then attach learning on top of it. Um is this something that's productive? Um, and if not, you know, how do people get to a point where they are comfortable to pay the price for learning if I have to actually give more attention to it? And it can't be something that I just do passively, especially on a consistent basis.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

So I think one thing to so it's important to realize there's two different systems in the brain. One is your habitual system, uh, that's a learning system through the basal ganglia. And the other is through the hippocampus, that's that's your declarative learning. So when you're, let's say that you're sitting there and you're um sweeping the floor or making a cup of tea, or just doing something habitual, it's not interfering with your ability to learn declaratively. So if you're listening to a podcast while you're doing something routine and habitual, it's okay. You're you're still you can learn something. And they say passive learning, but there's actually some activity going on there. And you can't always be like 100% focused on whatever you're it's okay to be listening and grasping the key ideas, for example, of this podcast and what we're talking about, and you're still getting a lot out of it, and your brain is working actively while you're thinking about what we're talking about. Um, it is uh a different form of learning in the sense of you know, you're you're just you're sitting back, you're looking at the big picture, you're not really focusing in to solve a problem or something of that nature. That's the you know, you're using somewhat different processes. But our learning world needs different kinds of fuel. And so sometimes you need to have that bigger picture look um at what's going on to give you ideas, and then later you can focus in on things. But if you don't, if you're not like also feeding your brain with bigger picture look work or looks at the world, you can get like too tightly focused. And it then you um you can go off track because you're just focusing on this one little area and you don't see the bigger picture of how it fits into what's going on in the world. So some stepping back and getting this big picture fuel into your brain is also important.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

Um now I think I'd mentioned you know earlier how you know, I would like to circle back to the ADHD and you know, ADD and uh whatever you know, attention uh disorder uh that you know these days I think because people are more there's access and you know to actually diagnose, you know. So we have a lot of people who are diagnosed with a lot of these attention disorders. And they are tied to learning, meaning that you know it's harder to learn for because stay focused, and especially when you're trying to learn something that is novel to you, something that you're not very competent at. And so when things get hard for someone who's struggling with any attention disorder, then you know it's it's the tendency is to stop and just do something that's fun and something that's you know rewarding and something that is exciting. And some people have developed the skill of eventually circling back to what they were learning, and other people that's the end of it, and they just move on to the next thing. And so learning becomes extremely uh hard. Uh so I guess on one hand, how do people who are struggling to stay focused, how can they what's the best what's the most effective way for them to learn? Are there any practices and you know tools that they can incorporate into their lives to learn? But at the same time, should uh these disorders be something that we aim to you know cure? Because I think sometimes it's it's seen as a weakness for some people. It's you know, I I can't pay attention, I can't stay focused. Um, you know, I'm always just looking around and you know, looking for and I I I love that one um illustration that's used to explain ADHD. It's like, you know, uh cars coming on, you know, in this intersection, and let's say five lanes, and they're all driving, and there's no traffic lights. So there's nothing, no one to say, okay, you guys stop, you guys start to move. So they're all coming at full speed and so and there's no lack of coordination and connection. And of course, that metaphor screams chaos. That it's a chaotic way of uh thinking and managing thoughts and uh uh the flow of information in one's brain. But I think going back to um Santiago and how you've also framed it as well, that actually it can be an advantage, uh, especially for people uh working creative fields, a field that requires a lot of creativity. And a lot of creative uh people have been, you know, have come out and said, actually, I do suffer from ADHD. A lot of uh artists and people who work in creative industries say, actually I am. Um and it's it's served to my advantage because then it's forced me to be creative and to think outside the box, etc. So on one hand, for those who are diagnosed with ADHD or ADD, what are some of the tools to help them learn more effectively? But at the same time, you know, how should we reframe how we think about this? Because right now there are people who tend to think of it as a weakness, but could it actually be an advantage?

SPEAKER_01 53:13

Oh, absolutely. It is, it can be uh an extraordinary advantage. Because think about, I mean, if you can be laser-like focused all the time or whatever you're working on, it it can be incredibly difficult to like think about just some weird aspect, uh, unusual perspective on what you're doing that's connected to something completely different. But for someone with ADHD, it seems, you know, it seems so natural to have your mind jump from one thing to another, uh an idea, create one creative idea to another, that you almost discount the the value of your way of thinking. And you you kind of think, oh, well, doesn't everybody do this? No, everybody doesn't do this. And research shows that those with attentional challenges are also often very creative. So there is a good tool, but before I discuss it, I just want to say there's there are two different like webs in the brain. One is a very tightly connected set of webs. So it's called the task positive network, and it relates to whatever task is being activated. Like if you're doing a math problem, certain portions of math-related circuitry will activate, or if you're doing a um you're writing a report, other a specific area of your brain will activate. But there's another mode of operation of your brain that is much more widely connected throughout the brain that's called the default mode network. I like to call it the diffuse mode, and it's like what you do when you're mind wandering. And this is a mode that those with ADHD often have reduced levels of dopamine. And because of these reduced levels of dopamine, their brain can easily pop into this default mode, even when they don't intend for it to do that. So, what research has shown, though, is that of course this helps you to be more creative when you do pop into it. But an interesting thing is, we don't know why this happens. If a person with an intentional challenge is interested in something, if they're truly interested, not that they're faking, but they're really interested, they can hyperfocus. They can focus much more intently than uh a person who is more neurotypical. So it it's this is why, for example, those with ADHD can often focus incredibly on a video game, uh, because they're really interested in that. So, what what can you do if you have an attentional challenge? The best thing is the Pomodoro technique, which is used by, or it was developed by an Italian, Francesco Sedillo, in the 1980s. And it's simply all you do to do this technique is you you put away all distractions, so no pop-ups on your computer or your cell phone. You set a timer for 25 minutes, work as intently as you can for those 25 minutes, and then relax for five minutes. Just don't do anything. Don't go check in your phone to see if you have any text messages, because that makes you go back into that focus mode. Just sort of make a cup of tea, use that sort of routine, habitual, you know, I don't know, sweep a floor, walk around, do something, uh, stare at space and for five minutes. And that will take advantage of your focus mode and then that default mode network uh during that relaxation period where your brain can integrate the ideas you've just learned. So uh the more you can get rid of distractions with ADHD or attentional challenges, anything can be distracting. So the more you reduce things like uh pop-ups and and other kinds of um disturbances, the more you'll be able to focus intently. And the reality is almost anybody can focus for 25 minutes. Um, so there's lots of Pomodoro apps out there. Look for Pomodoro apps. Uh many people like to do three Pomodoros followed by five minutes, and then a fourth Pomodoro followed by a half an hour break. So that's a very good approach. And if you have trouble uh because of your attentional challenges in getting yourself to get back to work after the first Pomodoro, set a timer for the break as well.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

Um thank you so much for that. Now, as we're drawing to uh you know the end of our conversation, uh you speak about this idea of metacognition in your book as well, you know, thinking about your thinking. Um I like the metaphor you use. It's like it's almost like having a second brain. And particularly, you know, you say the easiest way to become more metacognitive is simply to start asking yourself higher level questions. And um I love questions, and uh you know, and so when you said this, wow, higher-level questions, uh, this really uh was very fascinating to me. So I guess the question is what makes you know questions high-level questions? What are the ingredients that uh and and how can we begin to ask ourselves these high-level questions?

SPEAKER_01 59:17

So comparing and contrasting things, um, asking yourself, whatever you're learning, how does it relate to something else? How's it different from something else? Um how in the learning process, as you were exploring and learning this new concept, what could you have done better? Um, is there something you would change in studying, for example, for a test? So asking yourself questions about uh about what you could do, and even in your life, like I'll I'll sit and pause sometimes and say, what am I really driving at? What is the main purpose of what I'm trying to do? Uh, is what I'm doing today supporting this main purpose? And sometimes I can't answer that because sometimes I think what I'm doing is something, it's like intuitively I feel that what I'm doing is supporting. Uh, and you can't be, it's not like you can say, oh yes, this is this concrete thing I did today that supports it, but you know that you're in the right direction, but still stepping back and saying, Am I in the right direction is is a valuable thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:43

Well, um, so now we've you know come to the end. Uh and I I would like to ask you the one-one-one question, right? What's the one book that you wish you read earlier in your career or life? What's the one habit you also wish you developed earlier as well in your life? And what is the one personal value that you will not compromise, you know, no matter the cost?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:11

Um I remember once when I was studying and I thought, I am not gonna turn this page until I understand this complex uh physics um concept that I am trying to learn that's explained on this page. And I sat there looking at that page for the longest time. I mean, I it was probably several hours. And I just I was like, I'm not gonna turn this page. And then finally I something distracted me, and then I accidentally turned the page, and there was the answer right on the next page. And I thought, if I had just turned the page, I I could have not wasted a couple hours of my time. And and then I I remember going, gosh, you know, why doesn't somebody write something about how you learn effectively? Why why is there nothing out there about effective learning and what happens in your brain and what you, you know, because it would save me a lot of wasted time where I really don't know what I'm doing when I'm trying to learn. So I I do have to say, if the the one book I wish I had had was a mind for numbers. I wish I had, I, you know, and I I ended up writing that book uh because it was needed. And but I wish I had known those ideas much, much earlier in my life. Um as far as habits go, um, I think I've had pretty good habits of learning that were developed by the uh Defense Language Institute, and that just involves that idea of trying to retrieve key ideas from your own mind. So um the and the Pomodoro has has been very helpful for me. I wish you know I could have been taught that when I was early on. Um and I think in my personal life, I I really, you know, it's a combination of two things. And I think it's it's like space. Space is three-dimensional, well, four if you count time, and there's probably more dimensions. So on one dimension, you know, we don't live in a flat world. We we have one dimension, another dimension, another dimension. So like one dimension in my life is just involves the the idea that truth is, I think, more important than um it's a really important issue. Um, and it's it's much more important than supporting your group, that it's you want to pursue truth. And often there's a wonderful book that I read uh called The The Scout Mindset by Julia Gailiff, and it talked about just how some people are like soldiers, they think their important thing to do in life is to support their group, but other people are more like scouts, they think that what's important in life is to discover the truth, and that's that's a key aspect of my life. Um, now if you said uh, you know, you need to lie, or we will kill your family, I would probably say, I'll lie. You know. So another uh sort of dimension in my life is just the the value of my family, my wonderful husband, uh our our our daughters, and uh, you know, and so I I treasure my family and I try How long have you been married? Oh uh 40 years. So yeah. Congratulations. I'm a very lucky, lucky woman.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:21

Uh definitely blessed, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:23

Yeah, that's for sure. So those are my two main sort of uh mathematically speaking, orthogonal values that help me in my life.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

Thank thank you for sharing that. And I think um for me, I would like to express gratitude. I think, particularly because as someone who's been struggling with sleep and particularly finding motivation to sleep long enough. Um and my excuse has always been you know I have to be awake to consume and to learn. I I love learning as far as my values, learning ranks higher than sleep. And and I always used it as an excuse to, you know, to just like learn. And I think reading your book and realizing actually, you know, good learners are good sleepers, so to speak. And you know, how you explain this process of linking, you know, the of linking of the you know the entertainment spines, I think, you know, and how that happens one while you're asleep has given me uh motivation to say, you know what, okay, if I actually if I am interested in learning, I have to be interested in sleeping long enough for this process to uh be you know to take place. And so thank you for that because I think uh my wife will be very happy with that. So so thank you for that. And and thank you for making the time to have this conversation. It's been quite meaningful to me personally, and I'm sure it's been meaningful to our audiences.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:02

It's my pleasure. Thank you so much, Ben.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:05

Yeah, and to our dear listeners, this has been the Y Lead uh podcast. I'm your host, Ben Odin.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:15

This podcast is brought to you by YLead Consultancy. We're dedicated to helping organizations develop leaders who inspire conviction, commitment, and congruence. If your organization wants to develop leaders worth following, please email us at Yoda as in Yoda at whileibathers.com. That is Yoda at whyleebathers.com or visit our website at www dot whileibathers.com.