0068 - Thrive at Work and in Life While Anxious ft Morra Aarons Melle

Morra, with her rich background in leadership and mental health advocacy, shares groundbreaking insights into how we can reframe our relationship with anxiety. From the gripping tales of leaders who've harnessed their inner turmoil to achieve greatness, to practical advice on managing the day-to-day challenges of anxiety, this episode is a treasure trove of wisdom for anyone looking to find peace in the chaos.

Discover why anxiety doesn't have to be the villain in your story, how vulnerability can be a powerful tool in leadership, and why embracing your anxious tendencies might just be the secret to unlocking your potential. Whether you're a high-flying CEO or just starting your journey, Morra's candid sharing and actionable strategies will inspire you to view your anxiety through a new lens.

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Transcript

​​Ben Owden

Greetings to you. I hope you're at peace and are having a meaningful and productive day. Welcome to another episode of the Why Lead podcast. I'm your host, Ben Owden. Let's begin with a few questions. Do you ever find yourself struggling with worry and even dread about all the things that could go wrong? Are you ambitious and driven, but also ruminate, due and have a hard time letting things go? Do you sometimes feel you're in over your head and that any day now others will discover you're faking it? Are you someone who avoids certain situations at all costs, like flying or public speaking, even if it means sacrificing opportunities and not advancing in your career? Do you consider yourself an anxious person? If you've answered yes to any of these questions, this episode is for you. Today we will be exploring the sometimes horrifying terrains of anxiety and stress in the hopes of getting you to a place where you're better equipped to build a healthier relationship with anxiety, in a place where anxiety works for you and not against you. And so to have this conversation, I am joined by the host of one of the top business podcasts in the world called the Anxious Achiever. She has written two books, hiding in the bathroom and anxious achiever, and has written articles for New York Times, entrepreneur, Fast Company, Slate, InStyle, or the Wall Street Journal, Forbes, the Guardian, and she speaks extensively on leadership in fortune for 500 companies, us government agencies, and elite universities like Harvard and MIT. Ladies and gentlemen, Morra Aarons Mele, you're most.

Morra Aarons Mele

Thanks.

Ben Owden

You know, I think most of us can identify with being anxious, especially at the beginning of the year, like right now, right. People are setting goals and people are planning, and you're reflecting probably on the previous year, and there are a lot of things that you haven't really achieved. So anxiety is something that we live with on a daily basis. But I think seasonal wise, this is the time that people are usually anxious. But one idea that I don't think a lot of us openly share is something you say in your book. You write, for me, anxiety is both a gift and a curse. You refer to it as a companion in life. So how should we come to terms with this duality? Meaning that anxiety can be both a gift and a curse, a friend and a foe. How should we embrace that?

Morra Aarons Mele

We just have to embrace it, right? Because it's part of life. Anxiety is a very natural human emotion. It can be an uncomfortable emotion, right? But it is part of being human. Anxiety keep us alive and we still feel anxious, even though we are not necessarily prey like we were millennia ago. Right. When anxiety evolved in our brains to give us a sense of a threat. But anxiety is a necessary and useful emotion. Now, I want to be very clear that anxiety is on a spectrum, like all of mental health, like many things in life. And at the very top of the spectrum is what neuroscientists would call good anxiety. So this is the kind of anxiety that it's very much time delimited, it's appropriate to what's happening. So you might feel good anxiety before you're about to go on stage or participate in a sports match or do something that you really care about, where you feel like the stakes are high and you really want to do well. Right. You're anxious because you want to perform and your body is revving up for that. The thing about that kind of anxiety is it usually comes and goes. Right in the middle of the spectrum is what a lot of us feel right now, which is a sort of sense of chronic anxiety. This is often, like you said, an anticipation of something that might go wrong, of feeling like the world is just not right. Things don't feel good. And a lot of us, we just walk around anticipating sort of bad things to happen. We feel worried a lot. But we may not have clinical anxiety. And clinical anxiety is the sort of bottom end of that spectrum of anxiety. It's what I have. It's what a lot of people have. It's the most common mental health disorder in the world. And it is when you are anxious, maybe for no good reason, maybe you are feeling so anxious that you are avoiding doing things right. You're avoiding things in your life, you're having panic. And in this case, if anxiety is really interfering in your life, I really recommend seeing a doctor, getting help getting therapy, because it's very treatable. But there's a lot of us who have clinical anxiety that's very well managed. And so we have a lot to share with people who feel anxiety right now.

Ben Owden

Yeah. And I think in your book, you refer to that as trait anxiety, right?

Morra Aarons Mele

Yeah, trait anxiety.

Ben Owden

That's right.

Morra Aarons Mele

Versus state.

Ben Owden

State versus trait. Yeah, I like that you say that. There is a great benefit in adopting this intellectual and psychological shift from seeing anxiety as an enemy to be exterminated to seeing it as an overeager friend who's trying to so very hard to help. So, as someone who has publicly shared her anxiety, how did you reorient your relationship with anxiety to get to this point of, I guess, friendship? I don't know. If that's the right word, friendship would be strong.

Morra Aarons Mele

Um, you know, we. We can no more extinguish anxiety from our life than we can extinguish fear or anger or grief or any other very natural but difficult emotions that come with being human. And I think that's a piece of it. No matter how much therapy you do or medication you take or meditation you do, you will feel uncomfortable emotions. And some of us are going to feel them more than others. And so there's a piece of acceptance that's really, I find helpful, because if you fight it and it's going to get worse. Right. We can't stuff our emotions away as much as we would like to be able to do that. And the other thing, and this is not just me, but the hundreds and hundreds of interviews I've conducted over the years, is that a lot of us who manage anxiety chronically rely on it. It really pushes us, that anxious sense when we wake up in the morning, we feel like we have a lot to prove. We feel like we have a lot to do. We feel the stakes are high, it propels us. And so we don't always want to get rid of it totally. We just want to manage it.

Ben Owden

And I think. Speaking of that. Exactly, meaning that activation power of anxiety, where sometimes it can propel you to, I think a lot of higher achievers, there's a sense of anxiety about them, and that's the energy that pushes you. But then how do we build a boundary that restricts this activation energy, that it doesn't get to a point where it becomes sustaining energy, meaning that we. And I think there are people who deadline junkies, right. Last minute things, because you just want that energy. And so you always put yourself in situations where you are chasing after something or something is chasing you, and usually the end of that is either burnout or you have this extreme anxiety where you feel powerless and you're overwhelmed by the number of things you have to get done? So how do we create boundaries around our anxiety so that it becomes this activation energy and it doesn't really spill over to the other side where maybe it's not so ideal.

Morra Aarons Mele

Right. Or kill our joy. Right. When you're anxious all the time, it's impossible to feel. You know, you lose a lot of brain space to it. It's like a running machine in your brain all the time. And so takes up a lot of space and energy. Yeah, that is the question, Ben. Right. How. And I try to offer ideas in the book, but the truth is that the biggest question that you have to come to is, is this serving me? Is this just a habit that I've been doing for so long? I don't know how to operate any other way, right. I don't know how to not wait until the last minute. I don't know how to not feel like people are chasing me to get things done. I don't know how to not feel like a perfectionist where it's all or nothing. And when you decide that maybe it's not serving you so well and you want to make a change, there are many, many ways you can do that, right? There are many kinds of cognitive behavioral therapy, all different kinds of modalities of therapy and practice and mindfulness and just many ways that you can literally stop doing those habits that you've been doing that keep you in anxious state?

Ben Owden

Yeah, in my own, I guess, experience. And my wife, she's not diagnosed, but I think she's proclaimed that it's almost like trait anxiety of some sort, and a lot of it, people with trait anxiety, and I've been anxious in many seasons of my life. And there's usually a narrative running in your mind, right? And we are the stories we tell ourselves. And in the book, you speak of this unreliable narrator, right. That either threatens or undermines our sense of self worth. And so sometimes with people who say yes to everything, it's usually maybe there's a narrator in your head where you'll only be relevant, valued and worthy of everything if you just say yes and accept all the incomings in your life. So how do we know that our narrator is unreliable, especially because this is your companion your whole life? This is the story you've been telling yourself your whole life. And how do we gain, I guess, enough self honesty not to label the narrator unreliable when maybe they are saying things that are difficult to hear. Maybe sometimes we do need to actually make some serious decisions and changes in our lives. And so a copart could be saying this is an unreliable narrator. But also how do we have that sense of enough self acceptance and honesty to be able to correctly, I guess, identify what kind of narrator we have, reliable or unreliable?

Morra Aarons Mele

I'd love to hear, how have you done it? What's worked for you?

Ben Owden

I think it's something that I have struggled with for a very long time, meaning to know. And there was a point in time when I had to. Now I can look back and say that narrator was unreliable, but they were lies and exaggerated truths that I had to tell myself to be able to make it past a certain season of my life where I have to talk myself into believing that this is the reality when it's not the reality, just so that I don't get drowned into because the reality was sort of pulling me down. And so I have to tell myself exaggerated truths and lies to be able to survive and get to the next level. And I think the cultivation of that habit gets to a point where now you're no longer in this very volatile situation where you have to be grounded in actual truth. But then you have trained your narrator to be this hype man that tells you what you're thinking. Now they've become unreliable because you've trained them your whole life to be able to speak of an alternate reality that's not real. And so I think for me, in the last couple of years, I have tried a lot to ground myself in truth. And to be able to do so, I've had to spend. And there was a point in time in my life where I quit everything, my job, everything, and I just disappeared for, like, two, three years just to establish my sense of worth as a person so that I can come to face with this reliable narrator and they can tell me all sorts of things that are wrong about how I am living my life and how I've built my identity. And I can still hear that without it's completely destroying who I am. So I think, for me, I remember that season of my life where I took time away from everything to really reestablish who I am as a person. What I stand for and what defines my sense of worth has helped ground who I am. So now I can hear feedback and now I can hear things that are not so pleasant to hear without it completely destroying who I am as a person. So that's a path that I've taken. And people have asked me this a number of times, and I always tell people, this is not prescriptive. It doesn't mean that you have to disappear into the woods for a couple of years to get to this point. But that's what worked for me. I had to isolate myself from what I knew to really have clarity around who I am or who I want to become as a person. And then especially, what is my sense of worth? What does that come from? What is the foundation of that? And for me, it's God, right? It's looking to God and know I'm made in God's image. And so all the flaws and all the different things that are broken about me, it doesn't really matter. That's not what defines who I am. And I can work towards this ideal Ben, but in the here and now, I am perfect. I am righteous in his eyes. So I think for me, that was the foundation that I established for myself. And so I can look in the mirror and see everything. But there is a sense of hope that this is not the end of the story. This is just what I'm experiencing in the journey. And so that's how I have sort of conceptualized it for myself and what has worked for me. But I'm always curious around what works for other people as well.

Morra Aarons Mele

Gosh, that's really beautiful. It's funny, I just interviewed a United States congressman who is the ranking member of the Armed services Committee, which means that he is the top Democrat in our congress in that us house, making decisions about our basically military funding and big job. And he said almost exactly what you said just now. And he said that when he finally went into therapy, his name is Adam Smith. When he finally went into therapy, it was like his 12th doctor, because he was really in a lot of pain. The doctor said, you just basically don't believe that you have the right to be alive. You've been achieving and operating from a place where your achievement defines you. The work that you do for other people defines you. Even your role as a husband or father defines you. But you're a human being. You have inherent self worth, and you need to get to a place where you can operate from that. And when he said that, it really floored me. And of course, I joked and I said, what does it feel like to operate from a place where you feel you have inherent self worth? Because I'm not sure I ever have. But he's like, it's amazing. I think what you just said is a question that a lot of us have to answer. It's painful and it's hard. We have to answer it.

Ben Owden

Yes, we do. And I think it's the reason for me personally, again, going back to the story you tell yourself, it's the one story that I tell myself frequently because I know what it's like to live outside of that. I know the chaos that was my mind and my head, and I know the lack of peace and this existential angst that I had that was unbearable to a large degree. And now I'm like, okay, I have to protect this narrative. I have to make sure that this narrator always keeps this story on replay in my mind, so to speak. No, go ahead.

Morra Aarons Mele

Yeah, I just wanted to say, in defense of us anxious achievers, there is a piece of it. That, I do believe, is also what makes us great. Yes, we are people who question. We are people who are restless. We are seekers. We are questioners. We run maybe a little bit hot, but it also makes us great. It makes us who we are. And so I never want people to feel like, wait a minute, that sounds like a total personality change. It comes back to the gift and a curse. I think that as long as you feel like maybe you're in the driver's seat of this more than you used to be, then that's a good place to be. But you may never get rid of that essential nature that wakes up every morning and thinks, what is it all for? Just may not.

Ben Owden

Yeah. And I think I agree with what you said there, because I think when you're anxious, there's a sense of urgency with a lot of things in your life, and sometimes that pushes you to act, and that's a good thing. A lot of change makers and people who push things, and there's that sense of urgency to things that are happening. And so it's definitely not something to be eliminated. And I think that's why I like the statement that you say there, which is, how do we build a relationship with anxiety, where we harness all the great things that can come out of being anxious as a person and not necessarily look at it as something to be completely eliminated as this negative aspect of who we are. And I think, speaking of leadership, I think to a lot of leaders, one of some of the worst advice you can give them is to advise them to admit or to share their anxiety, especially to the people they lead. Because we have somehow conceptualized and looked at leadership as a role or a position that has to display a lot of bravado and confidence and ironclad stoicism, anything can happen. A storm could be going around me, and I am just as calm as they come. But that's not the nature of reality. And that's why leadership is very lonely for a lot of people. I speak to a lot of leaders, and they talk about the loneliness that comes with the position, because you're almost forced to not be human, or at least to not display the full range of your humanity. You have to make sure that strength is all they see. But everything else that you're experiencing, being a human, you can't do that. And in some spaces, the culture is so toxic that if actually people see that, it's seen as a weakness and alarms go off and you're seen as a liability as a leader, because you're not inspiring confidence and all those kinds of things. So what do you think needs to change in how we conceptualize strong leadership? So that we create a space where vulnerable leaders are seen as strong leaders. Leaders who have that level of authenticity are not seen as weak. But actually, we see that, wow, you've displayed great strength and courage by actually being vulnerable with us and even maybe getting to a point where that's rewarded to some degree.

Morra Aarons Mele

I mean, I think it is changing. I think that one of the things that I'm always interested in, and maybe we could do, I'd love you to come on and do a session on my LinkedIn live. We could talk about this, because I love this topic, is how to use emotions strategically. And I actually think that a lot of leaders use vulnerable emotions very strategically. And I'm thinking recently in the US here, we had an airplane blow out one of its doors mid flight. It was a Boeing. Yeah, I saw that Max, which has been an airplane that has had horrible accidents. And the airplane feels like, oh, my God, this is a cursed airplane. And so the CEO of Boeing, who makes these planes, had to walk a tightrope, right? This past week of, if he didn't show any vulnerability or emotion, people would hate him. Because a little girl sat there while the door blew open mid flight and thought she was going to die. Right. People thought they were going to die. It was terrifying. And he said, he started to cry, and he said, I have kids. I'm a grandfather. I can relate to how these people felt. He had to convey empathy and sympathy and compassion while also trying to convey, I'm the boss, and I'm going to make sure this gets fixed. And that's the dance of leadership. And so I would say the challenge every leader needs to figure out is, how do I really summon the right amount of vulnerability so that people trust me? They don't think I'm a robot or an authoritarian leader, but they know, like Amy Cuddy says, right, you want the warmth, but you want the competence, so that they know I'm still the boss and I'm going to help fix this. That, to me, the challenge.

Ben Owden

Yeah, I like that. It's a tightrope type of situation where you.

Morra Aarons Mele

Gender your background, how you look, your age, everything.

Ben Owden

Yes. And I think, come to think of it, yes. It's not easier, I would say, with any, because if you're a woman, people expect you to show emotion. And there's probably that hesitance of they'll probably just. I'll be affirming whatever stereotypes that they already have about who I am and how I function. So it goes both ways. And I think something else that I wanted to ask is, in a lot of stories and narratives that are created around fictional or real people, power in all those narratives is seen in the courageous and not the most anxious. Right. It's David and Goliath. And the Bible doesn't say David threw up. And it was struggled before he went to find Goliath. Just read a story of a guy who just said, I'll go do it. And he just marches to the battlefield, and it's Michael Jordan. And this story, when people talk about athletes, he was sick, he had flu, but then he went and played and he scored this many points. These are the stories that we tell of our heroes. They just did it. In spite of all the circumstances and the challenges, we don't really capture moments of anxiety in the stories that we tell. So do you think we should maybe consider changing how we tell the stories of our heroes? Meaning it's not so much just focusing on the courage and everything else, but rather highlighting those moments of anxiety that in spite of trembling, in spite of all of this, they did it anyways, rather than just saying, this is just someone who was so strong and they just jumped at the opportunity to save the world, and they'd save the world.

Morra Aarons Mele

We have to. It's imperative. We have to tell different stories, because when we define what a leader is in black and white, we tell so many people, then you can't be a leader. You're not what a leader looks like because you feel anxious, because you're so. One of my favorite historians is Nancy Kane at Harvard Business School. She studies cris leadership, and she tells the stories of leaders fear and anxiety and despair, true despair in the moment where they have to step up and be great. And I love her work. I think it's so powerful because, of course, everyone feels these emotions. It just doesn't always feel safe to talk about them. But when you talk about them, you normalize them. Right. So I think that that is just absolutely imperative.

Ben Owden

And in a highly sort of competitive world we live in today, and the world now is connected. Social media platforms of all kinds, including the professional world, it's becoming very common to aim to stand out. Right. There's this advice. Right. Don't be great, be the only stand out. The desire for uniqueness, so to speak, is at an all time high, but then it comes at a cost, because I think there's this idea you speak about the anxiety of the only right. Where uniqueness sometimes can be negatively perceived. Right? In contrast to what is standard, to what is the status quo, to what is the norm. So how should we aim to be the only? To aim to stand out without drawing the anxiety of the only? Or maybe how do we manage the anxiety that comes with standing out like that? And I think in the world we live in today, it requires people to stand out, to be individuals, so to speak. But then that comes with a fair share of anxieties.

Morra Aarons Mele

Right. Because anxiety is also structural and systemic. Right. It's not just what we feel in ourselves, it's what society tells us about ourselves. And so the anxiety of the only comes when you are a member of a group that is historically marginalized or you're the only for a reason that is not considered. Like, in America. If you're the only star quarterback on your trading floor, you have all the power, because we idealize football players in this country. And so you might be the only, but you're an only with a heck of a lot of power. Right. Or if you're a footballer and you're the only, it's like, oh, my God. So the anxiety of the only is when the only category I'm making air quotes is an only that we don't view as strong and powerful. So that is really, I think so. Important is when you stand out for a reason that people may not equate with power and leadership, that is really hard. So if you stand out because you talk about your mental illness, that's really hard. Because we don't equate mental illness with leadership. If you stand out because you're the only woman on your team in a male dominated field, also, that can make you really anxious if you're the only person of color, lots of factors. So I think it's really important that companies talk about this stuff. When they talk about inclusivity and belonging, they need to talk about the anxiety that comes along with standing out.

Ben Owden

Wow. Yeah. That is. Yeah. In terms of. There's a concept that I was thinking about, and I thought, I would love to hear your thoughts on it, because, again, I was using superman mythology. I was like, okay, what would be the kryptonite for anxiety? And I was wondering, would purpose this deep sense of meaning be a kryptonite and a kryptonite not in a sense that it completely kill anxiety, but rather not making the sort of destructive nature of anxiety as powerful to one's life? Would purpose be that? And I think one story that, I guess another story from the Bible is, there's this scene where we see Jesus, and his whole story is, he came to save the world and to die on the cross. But then as he was getting closer to it, there's a scene where he's crying tears of blood, and he's praying, and he's saying, I don't want to do this. If it's at all possible. I would love for this to pass from me. And then he says, but not my will. Let your will be done. And then he proceeds to die on the cross. And that sense of deep anxiety that I'm about to experience, a very horrifying thing, but because of my purpose, I'll just go through with it. Do you think that translates in our day to day life? Meaning when you are clear on your purpose, the purpose for what you're about to do, does that help power you to go through in spite of maybe the anxiety that you're experiencing?

Morra Aarons Mele

So there's an evidence based school of therapy called act, acceptance and commitment therapy, and it is deeply rooted in values. I like to think about values versus purpose, because purpose can be external. You can be raised to think that you have a purpose that you truly aren't aligned with in your heart. And so act talks about values. What are my values as a human being? Right. And so when you can tap into your values. Yes. I always tell a really silly story. That's a good example, which is that I have a real fear of flying. But I fly almost every week because that's how I earn money as a Ben Owdennd a consultant. And when my babies were little, I would sit on the Runway before a business trip and always think, I'm about to go, this plane is going to crash. I would have horrible, horrible anxiety, almost to the level of panic. But I learned a technique where I would tap into my values, my values of showing up when people ask me to, believing the work I do is meaningful and supporting my family, being a good provider and caregiver for the people that I love would remind me that the reason, the purpose I'm on this trip is important, and I'm going to be okay. And I think there's lots of evidence that when you can actually tap into your values, your why, whatever you want to call it, it really can help not to dismiss the anxiety, but to allow you to push through the anxiety.

Ben Owden

Okay. Yeah, definitely. I have plenty of stories of that working in my life, meaning being clear on what my values are, and that having sort of, like, guidance, power of how I navigate my own personal life now, there's a question that we ask all of our guests. It's called the one one one. Which is, what is the one book that you have read at some point in your life that you say, if I had a time machine, I would have loved to read this book, maybe when I was younger. And then what is the one value that you will not compromise, no matter the cost? This is the one value. I'm flexible on so many of them, but this one, I'm not moved. And then what is the one habit that you have picked up along the journey of your life that you practice and you say, this has been very useful in my life, and I wish I had started earlier. So like a book habit and a personal value. So I'll ask you another question and then we'll close with that question. But I think something else that I wanted to ask was, and this is a habit that I've seen in myself, my inconsistency around self care and taking time for myself is I would have a plan, I would do this and I would do that. But then when work gets in the way and I just become busy with other things, the first aspects of my life to sacrifice are usually self care. If I said that I would take some alone time, I would sleep 8 hours a week. Those would be the first things to actually sacrifice as I get busier with other things. So saying no, so to speak, then becomes a very critical aspect in protecting our self care. But then saying no is something that a lot of us struggle with. So what sort of values do we need to adopt in our own life to be the kind of people who are quick to say no, to protect these self care practices that help maintain somewhat of a productive anxiety in our life?

Morra Aarons Mele

I'm a big sports fan, so I like to think about how athletes stay in condition, right? And athletes are very good, if you think about it, at taking themselves seriously in a way, because they need to perform, and we're not that different, right? Those of us who have families, have people in our lives who depend on us, who have work that is demanding and that we really care about, it is in our best interest, in the interests of other people, that we're in good shape. And so I like to think about that, right? Like, what would I do if I were an elite athlete training for a big event, right? Would I not respect how my body feels, that my body hurts right now and I need to recover? So I'm sort of building in that framework of a little bit like being on the plane. People rely on me, and therefore I need to be healthy. I find that helpful.

Ben Owden

Great. And so finally, the one one.

Morra Aarons Mele

Since I've been talking about act therapy, I will point to a great book called the happiness Trap by Dr. Will Harris. I love that book. It is, to me, my favorite psychology and self help book. It's wonderful. The happiness trap and habit is really trying to get into the habit of stretching every day and moving my body. Especially if you find yourself working on Zoom a lot and on a computer, you really need the habit of moving around and stretching, because it is not good for us to sit cramped in front of a screen all day like so many of us do. And.

Ben Owden

What was the third personal so value book habit, so personal value that you will not compromise, no matter the cost?

Morra Aarons Mele

I will never compromise being able to sleep at night based on my actions.

Ben Owden

So is that integrity?

Morra Aarons Mele

I don't know what the word is. It's just a sense of if I can't sleep because I feel guilty, bad, whatever. It's not the right thing to do. I need to pass my own sort of ethical litmus test.

Ben Owden

So you will only do things that will not steal your ability to sleep.

Morra Aarons Mele

At night or look myself in the mirror or whatever metaphor you want to use.

Ben Owden

Yeah, that's a good one, actually. That's a great one. Yeah. And I think I'll probably start. Yeah, I'll definitely incorporate that into my own life. So thank you for that. Well, we have come to the end of our conversation. Thank you so much for making the time and sit down to have this conversation and for openly sharing your anxieties with the world. I'm sure you've dealt with the anxiety of the only, considering that you're one of the few people who are openly talking about this in the way that you are. So thank you. Thank you for that. And any final words for our audience before we wrap up?

Morra Aarons Mele

Be kind to yourself and other people.

Ben Owden

Be kind to yourself and other people. Thank you for listening. This has been the Why Lead podcast. I am your host, Ben Owden.