0067 - Winning The Stress War, Embracing Calmness and Overcoming Procrastination ft Paul Loomans

Ben Owden engages with Paul Loomans to explore the intersection of calmness and productivity. Loomans offers profound insights into the detrimental effects of sustained stress and the importance of embracing calmness in everyday life. They discuss strategies for managing interruptions, focusing on one task at a time, and transforming limiting beliefs that hinder productivity. Through anecdotes and practical advice, they highlight the power of acceptance and self-awareness in achieving optimal performance and well-being. This episode serves as a guiding beacon for those seeking to navigate the complexities of modern life with clarity, purpose, and tranquility.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

But of course, this has a price. And the price is that you feel very tired afterwards, but the price is also that this cortisol in your blood, the cortisol level, is going up. And one night is not sufficient to break down this level of cortisol. It's not enough to become on zero again. So next day you still have some cortisol in your blood. And when you're doing this day in, day out, uh the cortisol level in your blood is going the more and more the more and more higher. And you can feel it because your body becomes more tensed. You have less pleasure in your work, you're a person that is more aggressive and then doesn't have it's not so you are not so nice anymore, you don't sleep very well anymore. And that's because uh there was too much stress in your body during too long time. So I think uh when you when you think about this, uh it's not only important to create briefers during the day, but it's also important to function out of peace and not function out of adrenaline. The adrenaline is meant for special situations. Special situations when you do have to do a presentation, you will feel adrenaline and it helps you. It helps you to uh when you when you manage it well, it doesn't block you, when it helps, when when it gives you the energy to perform well. So at that moment it's it's welcome. But not during the whole day and not during all the actions. We function much better out of peace than out of adrenaline in normal normal day work.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

My hope is that this conversation will help you find the clarity and conviction you need to lead a more meaningful and impactful life. I have curated some of the best thinker practitioners from all over the world to help you get to your leadership no final. So stick tight and let's go on this journey together. Greetings to you. I hope you are at peace and are having a meaningful and productive day. Welcome to another episode of the Why Lead Podcast, and I am your host, Ben Odin. Now, have you ever felt stress as a result of your desire for more productivity? Have some of the tools that have promised more productivity ended up causing more stress? Well, you're at the right place. Today we'll be exploring a time management system that gives you calmness, peace, and creativity. Think of your life as a seaman or woman and navigating time as time surfing, getting on the board, fully present, connected to the board, but connected to the ocean. And even more importantly, connected to the waves, where chaos leads to bliss and calmness is not the absence of the distractions, but the presence you have. And so to have this conversation, I am joined by our time surfing instructor. Uh, he is the founder and coach at Unraveling Stress in Amsterdam, where he works with individuals and groups, helping them to regain a sense of calm in their lives. An ordained Zen monk who runs the European Zen Center and author of the acclaimed book, Time Surfing. Ladies and gentlemen, Paul Lumens. Paul, welcome. Thank you. Um I think for someone when they hear the word time surfing, they're probably wondering what is it exactly when you say time surfing. So I guess maybe a good place to start would be uh a sort of explanation of what is time surfing and more importantly, what are the events um in your life that led you to get to a point where you create this system, this tool to help other people um manage their time and their lives better.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Yes, time surfing is a word. I uh when I discovered it, I started to wanting to uh organize myself out of peace. I didn't want to organize myself anymore out of stress and out of I have to do this and I have to do that and I have not finished this. Um so uh my ancient system was I had a lot of to-do lists. I had three to-do lists. I had one to-do list for my uh I at this moment I was an actor. So I had one list for all my acting activities, and I had a second list for all my Zen activities, and uh a third list for my home activities. I had a family, three young children. So I was navigating between these three lists, and I noticed I noticed it gave me stress trying to to fulfill all the tasks that were on my lists, and to yeah, um, that I was each time looking on my list, what did what uh I haven't done until now, and I should do this, and I have not finished that. And and that and that moment I take a decision and I said, I want to I want to start living out of peace and not out of I have to do this and I have to do that. So time surfing is in fact is um is it possible to organize yourself on a way that you each time you you start living out of peace? Not that you have peace at the end of the day, but peace in every activity that you're doing. And then when I found I found seven instructions. And the seven instructions there I waited for a moment and then there didn't come an eight instruction. There were really seven instructions, and they they were they took they were uh like a like a body, they learn were like organs of a body and uh keeping all being all in in relation to each other, these seven instructions. And I tried to find a name for it, and I thought a good name for it is time surfing because it expresses well that you are time surfing, is that you listen to the listen to the waves of time. You're very conscious of the waves of time around you, as you as you told before. You are conscious of everything that's happening, and at the same time, you are standing up the wave. You are not um you're not covered by a wave of small tasks and have to, but you're standing up the wave, seeing occasions and being calmness and uh going from one wave to another.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Uh I like that. Um there's a metaphor that you use in early in your book of a house, really to describe our sense of being as well. Um and I like that metaphor. So maybe if you could share with our listeners what that metaphor is. And and my question there, more importantly, is of all the elements in a house, right? There's the basement, there's the uh ground floor, and then there are floors, and then I think there's like a rooftop on top of the house. What is the most important element in that house as we think of ourselves in relation to time surfing?

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Um, the basement. Because the basement is the place where we where we work, where we have our tasks, where we have the things we have to do, and um where we earn our money, and when we where we are in contact with other people. That's the basement. And the house defines all the different themes from which we can have stress, from which we can become stressed. So we can become stressed of uh fulfilling our tasks on the basement. The seller of the house is uh about emotions, we can become stressed of our anxieties, of our sorrows, um of our pains, and um and on the first floor of the house, uh there are our our convictions, our convictions and our patterns of behavior. We can become stressed, for example, of being a perfectionist or being a very helpful person, which is very nice, but often very helpful people forget themselves. So we we can become stressed on the first floor of our patterns of behavior, of our convictions or our convictions. And on the roof, we can we it's communication on the roof. If we are we are have not a good communication with the people around us, uh we cause a lot of problems. So that are the four the four stocks you would say of the house. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

But you say the most important is the basement.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

For the moment for the present moment, it means when when you are talking about tasks, it's the basement. But when you are talking about uh a loss, for example, uh the salary is more important.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Yeah. Um now, you know, time time surfing as a as a system is deeply grounded uh on this idea of using your intuition. Um now, the success and the prevalence of a lot of other time management systems is due to the fact that most people need an external system to manage time, right? Uh but you challenge us to focus on our internal system. Um, and you know, you say your intuition can manage your time much more effectively than your mind. Um, and I'm sure this comes as a shock to a lot of people, especially people who you know have all kinds of systems. I think most people have three journals, there are so many apps these days. There are so many ways to um organize um our lives and the systems in place. And a lot of them are external, you know, reminders from a phone, reminders from an app, um, emails, you know, notifications on what you need to do this time and that time and that time. And you say we maybe have to rethink and focus on our internal system. So my question is what do we lose by continuing to outsource our time management instead of taking this advice that let's look inward, let's um work on improving our internal system so that it works for us. What do we lose by ignoring that advice?

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Yeah, what we lose is uh I would say um doing things at the right moment. I I think everybody knows it when you do something at the right moment, uh it goes fluidly, um without tensions, you are inspired. Um you write a text uh and you think I was inspired, I write it in two in ten minutes. I have written something very important. It was as if I had the wind in the back of me. And um being doing things at the right time is because you are uh harmonious with your surroundings, but also with yourself. You're doing something, it's you are exactly at the right moment doing something uh precisely, and when you are time-surfing and you follow your intuition, you will be all the time in doing the things at the right moment because you choose with your intuition, you your intuition will always deal with all the circumstances. Uh the intuition can uh um the intuition knows so when the intuition knows about your surrounding, knows about what you want to do in the future, knows about your uh um how do you feel today, how do you feel in this moment, what comes later on this day. You should very well feed your intuition so that the intuition is well uh informed, and then your intuition can act from moment to moment and places the tasks you want to do in the future, places it on the timeline, exactly on the right moment, so that you you you feel that you do it at this moment, you need to do it this moment because this is the right moment to do it.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Yeah, um I like what you said there because I think yeah, you know, you do speak about this idea that we have to feed our intuition. Um, and I think for a lot of people, you know, um we have fed our intuition the wrong stuff for a very long time. So now trusting the intuition is a very scary thing because it's fed the wrong stuff, so it actually might work against us. Um, so there's anxiety around you know building this trust relationship with our intuition. Um so for someone who says, you know what, I have a dysfunctional relationship with my intuition, I have probably not been intentional about feeding my intuition, so you know, whatever came my way is what was fed my intuition. Um and as we're thinking about reorienting our intuition and rebuilding that trust, what's how can we be more intentional in feeding our intuition the right stuff so that it works for us? Um so that we overcome this anxiety of like I can't just abandon these all these systems and just choose to focus internally. I think there's a real anxiety there, and it's because we have not been intentional about feeding our intuition the right stuff. Um we're just life is fast, we're just moving, we're just coping and um you know, reacting to things as they come. So that lack of intentionality is something that a lot of people don't really have. So, how how do we get to that point? And for someone who has a dysfunctional relationship with their intuition, what steps can they take to feed the intuition the right stuff so that that relationship becomes healthier?

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Yes, it's a that's a very important question. I think we are we are most of the time we are we are reactive, people are reactive, and we should try to become proactive again. What do you want? What do you want, and what's what do you want today, and what do you want now? And not oh, I have to react on this email, and I have promised this, and uh now I have to react. And no, but what is the right thing to do now? That's the question, proactively, and also what do I want to do in the future? And you all the tasks and projects and wishes you want to do in the future, you should take them seriously and you should explore them. So before doing them, the first thing you do is to explore them. And when you explore something you want to do in the future, you explore, of course, uh you explore what is it for kind of task and what do I need, etc. etc. But you also you explore your fears. What do you fear about? What are you apprehensive for? And um you explore a task as long as that you become friend with it. When the task feels like a friend, when you're not fearing anymore about the task, you know you you don't need to know everything, but um you are confident. You uh it's it has become a friend, and then you can uh leave it in your subconsciousness. You don't need to think anymore about it. And at the right moment, your intuition will bring the task forward. It will give you good ideas, it will show you uh good circumstances and occasions, and at the right moment it will tell to you now it's the right moment to start this task.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Um that is an interesting one because I think uh something else that I'd wanted to um ask because in your book you say um the criteria for remembering to do something intuitively is not whether something is difficult or unpleasant, it's whether something is real for you, whether you've created an honest relationship with it, right? And you just said it right now. Um this idea of creating relationship with inanimate things like to-do lists or tasks. And I and I don't know if this is a Zen idea, uh, because um a favorite writer of mine, um Ruth Ozak, has this book called The Book of Form and Emptiness, and she's a Zen monk as well. And she's the whole book is based around having relationship with things around you, and so you know, books talk and clothes speak and other things, and so I so this idea of having a relationship with things, having a relationship with tasks. Where do we begin to have a relationship with things that don't speak?

SPEAKER_02 17:32

You know, yeah, it's by exploring them, by exploring them, for example. Um say you want to to write a book, you want to write a book in the future about about a certain theme, then uh the first thing you need to do is to explore what do you want to write? What do you and can you can you make uh already in the beginning different parts of what you want to write? And how do you want to start? And do you have all the knowledge about what you want to to about the theme you want to write something? Um which knowledge is lacking to you? And do you need help? Do you need help from someone? Do you need uh to talk to some people to know more about this or that theme? And where are you apprehensive about? And when you think about all these themes, the the book becomes more real to you. And now I say it's about the book, but it's about everything. For example, it can be there's something is broken into your household. For example, your your uh washing machine is broken. Oh, the first thing you think is, oh, my washing machine is broken. I uh let's say you want to repair it yourself. I like repairing things myself because I want to know how how they how they function. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to open it. I go to open it and look. Uh can I see where the water is coming from? Whether where where is the leak? And and if I can find it, then I go a step further. You you you you uh you don't stay at the problem, but you go further. You go looking at you go looking at it uh until it becomes clear to you. And if it when it becomes clear, you can go forward.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

So we we create the relationship by being curious and observing and studying something, like a child looking at a foreign object.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Like everything we want to do, because we we go look at it. And sometimes we don't go look at it because we think, oh um, you have fears about it. You think oh, I cannot do it, for example. Um, but you should also face your own fears and look your own fears in the face. And okay, I think I cannot do it, and that's what I think, but maybe it's not true. I'm going to look. So you've you face also your fears and your your your ideas you have about something. But the first thing is very simple because now it's already the first thing is very simple, is go and look at it. At all the tasks you want to do, it's what do you know about it? What do you want to do? Very simple. What do you know about it and let it enter into your system? I call it. Let it enter into your system, that means um visualize what you would do to execute it. What do you need? And when you think about it, to oh, I need to do this, and then I need to do that, and I need that information, and that information is stored there, and then I could do it. Okay, and now I have a good vision about what I want to do because I visualized it, and it's like the task is becoming uh my friend.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Um, something else that you know was uh something that I've said I'm gonna incorporate in my own life is this change of language where you move away from saying you know, to-do list to saying a wish list, right? Why is this transition important? I think there's uh lots of articles there, you know, death by a to-do list. Or if you want your good projects and ideas to die, put them on a to-do list. So, you know, people have a love-hate relationship with to-do lists. Um, but you talk about this idea of a wish list instead of a to-do list. Um, what is a wish list and what are some considerations people need to make, you know, if they're considering this transition? Um Maybe from a to-do list to a wish list.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

Yeah. It's maybe nice to know that my first step when I when I tried to discover if it's possible to organize myself and to to work out of peace, the first thing I did do was throwing away my lists. I had three lists, one for work, one for Zen, and one for family. And I throw them away. Because the first thing I noticed was that I got a lot of stress out of my lists. Out of the fact that I tried to control myself, to control, to see everything, and to uh consciously uh trying to manage my tasks. That gave me a lot of stress. So I throw away the lists, and then uh I didn't know what would come in the place of the lists. So I didn't have the wish list. I discovered the wish list. I didn't have a wish list, but I thought there is one thing I don't want to have anymore, and these are this control list, this to-do lists, because they give me stress. And then I discovered something. I discovered so I I had to to completely have confidence on my inner system to know what I would do when. Oh, yeah, I promised this person uh to do that. Oh, I have to do this. I was thinking in terms of I have to do, and during I was thinking I have to do, I I meant I noticed I was contracting my my body, I was it was causing stress. Yeah, yeah, really muscles. I was contracting so uh very softly, but I could notice it very softly. I was contracting, I was stressing myself because I thought and I thought this is curious. I'm thinking about something I want to realize in the future, and when I think about it, there is some stress in my body, and I use the word I have to, and I thought I have uh uh my relationship with the future is as if it is an enemy, and uh an enemy that I have to beat. And I thought this is I want to change it, I want to become a friend with my future. So I was trying to visualize the task that I want to do in the future, and then I noticed the stress went away. And the task in the future became a friend. I didn't know it, I had a relationship with it, it was not done, but uh it didn't fear me anymore, and I didn't talk in terms uh from I have to, but in terms from I want to, I want to do this, this this task in the future. And then sometime later, I I remarked that it is it it is helpful to start the day making a wish list. So you start the day and you make uh you take a white white piece of paper and you note on that white white on that white piece of paper, you note everything you want to do this day. It's a wish list. It's not I have to do this, but I want to do this. I want to write this, I want to phone this person, I want, and of course, you have also your emails, but from your emails, they are not for you, they are not any more a mess of uh lot of small tasks because you know them. You have read them well, you know them. So on your list, on your wish list is also I want to answer this email and I want to send this email, and so and I take really some time for it in the morning. So 10 minutes, and I make this list before I open my email. Because when you open your email, you're lost. The next hour you will be busy answering your email. So you don't you don't start with your email, you start with your wish list. And this wish list, each time you note something on your wish list you want to do, you also realize immediately what this task means for you. So you create directly a relationship with it. And then you turn it around. You turn it around, you cannot you cannot see it anymore, you cannot see the task anymore. From because when you can still see all the tasks you're need, you will you will choose by uh by your willpower, what you think, what is what is best, by your control. But when it's turned around, immediately your intuition will work. So then you stand up and you make a small walk, you're going to make a cup of tea, for example. And during your stand up and you walk around, you think, what will I start with? What's my first task I want to do? And you choose uh and you choose the task that fells into your mind as that's the most important what I want to do now. It's your intuition that chooses, and you choose and you start with this task, then you can open your email and answer some urgent matters. But uh, I would start with a with the with a big task, with the important task.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Um, and how does that fit into you know the world we live in today where I think most people look at their phones as the first thing when they wake up? Um and you know, going to WhatsApp or going on social media to see what's happening all around the world. And a lot of people, uh myself included, actually, whenever you are exhausted from a task or something, you switch to social media and then before you know it, you're lost. And now you're, you know, so then and then eventually it's that idea of habits, right? Now it's become a bad habit where your intuition is pushing you and drawing you more and more towards social media. Um and I guess we go back to what what I shared earlier, right? This idea that sometimes we have this bad relationship with our intuition because of a lot of these bad habits that we have formed over a long period of time. Um, so it's very interesting, right? This idea of a wish list early in the morning and maybe being intentional about avoiding some of these bad habits, like going to social media is the first thing, or whenever we're tired or our energy is low, to switch to something like a social media because I think the more that habit is reinforced, the harder it will be to become a time surfer. Um, I don't know what your thoughts are.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Yeah, yeah. It's uh it's a very important remark because social media they uh they make you reactive and they call you very loudly. It's made uh it's made on a on a way that it's almost impossible to not react. So uh social media it's like uh being in a uh in a shop with only uh sugar sugar around you. And everything you you can take is sugar and tastes like sugar. And we all know sugar is not very well for us, but you are in a in a in a shop with only sugar. Social media is a little bit like this, and our phone is a little bit like this. The third instruction of time surfing is uh maybe the most important instruction. It's called uh uh to make briefers inside your your time, to create briefers inside your your day. And a briever, a briefer is a moment uh when you uh when you are not focused. So, for example, to make clear what is a breever. Um I often say to people, when do you have your good ideas? And I would suggest people who are listening now to this podcast, they also take one moment to to think about when when do you have your good ideas? And what what kind of what kind of moments are it? And then when I ask this in a workshop, uh people answer me, when I well, I have my good ideas when I'm standing under when I take a shower. Or when I when I go from my work to my home on my bike, then I have my good ideas. Or for example, when I go for a short walk outside, I have my good ideas. And then I ask them, what is the what is common to all these moments where you have your good ideas? And the common the common thing is you're not focused. When you're standing under the shower, you're not focused. When you go on your bike home, well, uh when you live in a in a city with a lot of bikes, it's more difficult. But when you are on a landly road, you start uh you start daydreaming, you start having thoughts um that pass by in your head, and then you have your good ideas. So it's interesting to think about this system. Why does this happen? Why do you have your good ideas when you are uh not focused? And um being not focused has not only the the the um has not only uh the profit of having good ideas, it's also that you become calm. When you're not focused, you become calm. You also reflect about the things you have done in the past. So a lot of people they they awake in the night and they have a lot of thoughts about the work they have done during the day, but that's because they didn't step out. You need to step out of your work during the day, five, six, seven times, step out of your work and do something where you don't need to think about. For example, when you are at your working place, uh make a short walk, or make a cup of tea without talking to your neighbor, or stand for the window and look outside, or uh make a short walk around the building. And when you're doing this, um you start uh you start your your your thoughts start um coming out of uh out of your subconsciousness. You get thoughts coming out of your subconscious, good ideas, reflecting ideas, and you let them pass by. And doing this makes you in contact with your subconsciousness. So coming back to the social media, I'm not dogmatic. I don't say you shouldn't look at your social media. I should, I should say, I would say uh take briefers and do social media, when you want to do social media and do social media, but that was uh I was I would say that for two or three years, because now the social media had become so strong, like TikTok and uh Instagram, it has become so strong in taking your attention, um, that you the temptation is so huge that I think you should consciously take some steps to to become less tempted to to social media. So I would really uh put your phone on uh a mode that it's more difficult to to go to your social media, you have you have special special apps for that, um, so that they are less less attracting your attention consciously. My first uh first thing I would say was take briefers. Take briefers, take moments where you are not not focused, and and the best thing to do is you're doing something. So not focusing is not meditating, it could be meditating, but it's not only meditating. I would say are going to do something, but you don't need to think about when you are at home. It could be um uh filling the your washing machine, for example. So small tasks which you can do on uh an automatically automatic pilot.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

I like that. Um seven or eight breathers a day. Uh I think we should, you know, uh I think that I like that. What is it? One apple a day keeps the doctor away. Uh maybe you know, seven and eight breathers a day keeps the stress away. Um uh something else that you speak about is that you know, you you say stress um is not not that you say, but I think there's a school of thought and I've come across this that says stress is good, um, you know, and that we don't have a stress problem as you know as humanity, we have a rest and recovery problem, meaning that most people are overwhelmed by stress because they have no spaces and gaps for rest and recovery. Um so my question is, you know, is is calmness a result of a healthy cycle of stress and rest and recovery? Or is calmness a direct result of just following this natural stream of where life takes us?

SPEAKER_02 35:52

Well, I think both are true. I think both are true. So when you don't take breathers, uh you become the more and more stressed. So it's it's true that you should take out and take rests and then become calm again. Um, but it's not not completely true. Because, for example, um a lot of people are they are functioning on functioning on adrenaline. They say I function much better when I feel adrenaline in my body. And of course that's kind of true because when you are in danger, you develop the adrenaline and you you're you you can um uh you can save yourself in a dangerous situation. So it's very helpful. But um when you have a lot of adrenaline during the day, you not only develop uh adrenaline in your blood but also cortisol. And this cortisol that makes that you can stay longer time uh with stress in your body. This cortisol gives you a longer, for a couple of hours you can stay with this adrenaline in your body. So a lot of people feel this very attracted to this kind of state because they know during a couple of hours I can function better as I'm doing normally. But of course, this has a price. And the price is that you feel very tired afterwards, but the price is also that this cortisol in your blood, the cortisol level is going up. And one night is not sufficient to break down this level of cortisol. It's not enough to become on zero again. So next day you still have some cortisol in your blood. And when you're doing this day in, day out, uh the cortisol level in your blood is going the more and more the more and more higher. And you can feel it because your body becomes more tensed, you have less pleasure in your work, you're a person that is more aggressive and doesn't have it's not so you are not so nice anymore, you don't sleep very well anymore. And that's because uh there was too much stress in your body during too long time. So I think uh when you when you think about this, uh it's not only important to create briefers during the day, but it's also important to function out of peace and not function out of adrenaline. The adrenaline is meant for special situations. Special situations when you do have to do a presentation, you will feel adrenaline and it helps you. It helps you to uh when you when you manage it well, it doesn't block you, then it helps when when it gives you the energy to perform well. So at that moment it's it's welcome, but not during the whole day and not during all the actions. We function much better out of peace than out of adrenaline in normal normal day work.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

And and and how do we reorient ourselves? Because I think when you think about calmness, um, I think in most people, if you ask you know them, you know, what is hustling, what is you know, this go-getter attitude that people have, they associate that with speed, with haste, with high energy. Um but you know, you talk about this idea of pursuing calmness uh to be more effective. Um but for most people, calmness is associated with complacency and haste. And I think even when people think about monks, for example, you know, very slow, chill people, um, you wouldn't associate that with a lot of productivity, right? So, and and it's a mindset that we most of us really have. So, how can we reorient ourselves to seal calmness uh as a more productive approach rather than just always aim at running full speed all the time?

SPEAKER_02 40:05

Yeah, um calmness uh doesn't mean that you that you are not passionate. I myself am a very passionate person, and um my calmness help helps me to to uh regulate my my passion. Most of the things I do, I do them by passion. I can be very passionate in in everything I do. And um but I start out of a moment of calmness. When I do something, and calmness, it's very simple. Calmness is not for me, I want to be calm, but calmness is I don't want to be distracted. So my the attention from a time server is not to to get more attention, but uh to get more concentration, but the attention is to get less distracted. And when you are when you try to be less distracted and you you organize yourself to be the the less distracted as possible, not completely zero, but the less distracted as possible, the calmness will be there out of itself, will install itself out of itself, and then from out of this calmness, uh there will be waves. There will be waves, and the waves will be um about desires and about uh fear and about things that happen, and but each time you come back to what I call the sea of calmness and confidence. For me, the normal state, the state, the zero state of a human being is the sea of calmness and confidence. And out of this state you act, and then there are coming waves, but each time you come back to this sea of calmness and confidence.

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Um, the first step, you know, uh in this seven-step framework, uh, you say do one thing at a time and finish what you are doing. Now, you know, in the world of works, there are a lot of things we need to do that would not be described as pleasurable or pleasant. Um, but you know, time surfing says, you know, focus um uh on one thing, right? Um, and finish what you are doing. And sometimes when you're doing something that is unpleasant, um it's very hard to operate from a sense or from a place of calmness um or pleasure. And there's this idea called temptation bundling, which has been popularized by a lot of people, right? When you're doing something unpleasant, add something else to make it uh, you know, tolerable, so to speak. And so that's why you have these days people who go to the gym and they play music. So the music makes you know the exercises something you can endure. Uh, when people are sometimes working, they are listening to something on Twitter space or they're watching something on YouTube. Um, this idea of temptation bundling. Um, but you know, you say do one thing at a time and finish what you're doing, completely focus on on one thing. So for people who uh maybe are going to start learning, at least to have the right relationship with a lot of these tasks that are unpleasant, um is time bundling a good strategy? I mean temptation bundling is it a good strategy? Uh or should we uh just aim to do one thing completely?

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Well, a lot of people use temptation bundling, and I'm not completely against it, but it's not the the source of the problem, and it doesn't uh resolve the source of the of the of the question we Ask. So I think do one thing at a time. That means that you accept completely the task you are going to do. And it doesn't bother which task it is. So for example, in in when I have uh presentations, I often ask people, uh, what do you what do you don't like in your in in your life? What kind of task you don't like? And then people say, I I don't like uh passing the vacuum cleaner. Okay. Okay. And uh I don't like administration. Okay, okay. And then I asked to the people, who likes vacuum cleaning? Doing the uh passing the vacuum cleaner. And then 20 people from the hundred, they put their hand up. I like it. Okay, and then I tell them, what's your secret? I ask them. What's your secret? Tell us what's your secret. So we like we also like vacuum cleaning. The secret is very simple. They accept it. They accept it as the main task of the moment. At the moment, you have to do vacuum cleaning, and you think, okay, now I'm going to do vacuum cleaning. And you accept it, shut your your resistance disappears, and you are in the moment, and then something is happening. This task of vacuum cleaning becomes meaningful. It maybe it sounds strange that the task as vacuum cleaning can become meaningful, but when you are cleaning, you it's like if you are cleaning at the same time your head. Your thoughts are passing by and you become calm and you think a little bit about the future and about the past, and you have good ideas. It's like a breather. Administration, such another thing. Administration, before I didn't like administration. It was a task I postponed before. Now I do. I I know this is the beginning of the month of October. I have to do my administration. I have to. But uh I'm waiting for the right moments. I know it's already a couple of days in my head, and um tomorrow or maybe this afternoon, at some moment, my intuition will put it on the first place. And then I'm going to do my administration. When I do my administration, I close everything else and I just take my administration. And then I'm working, say, one or two hours or three hours, I'm working on the administration, and it calms me. Administration is very simple. It's making calculations and uh putting uh uh putting numbers in cases and uh and making totals from them. And it's very very simple, and you do you need to do it precisely, but it's not very difficult. So it calms me. And then I close it, uh I close it again, and then I start doing something very different, probably, because my intuition says at that moment, now you have been concentrated uh a lot long time on small small administration work. Now you can do something more creative, for example, and then afterwards I will choose a creative task. From the wish for diving into each action, no matter what it is, you dive completely in it and you accept it.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Acceptance is is is key. Uh now on the second step, uh, you say uh be aware of what you're doing and accept it. And you've already alluded to acceptance in what you were saying right now. And there's a line in the book where you say rushing is an example of unnatural behavior. Rushing is like gulping down time, which I thought that was very uh visual, you know, trying to gulp down time. You're not living for now, but for later. Um, and so I was wondering, you know, what if your now isn't pleasant? You know, like uh something like we just explained. Um, and what if actually you believe there is something shinier? There's a shinier bead out there. Um this idea of the grass is greener on the other side. Um so my question is in what ways is rushing unhealthy?

SPEAKER_02 48:31

Yeah. The shiny bead can only be here and now. The shiny bead cannot be in the future. When the shiny bead is in the future, you're always desiring something else. So it it begins with accepting completely what you're doing now as the main main and uh most important act you're doing, no matter what you are doing. And um rushing is mostly rushing is uh I do this because I want to do that afterwards. So, for example, when you are uh when you are preparing the meal, you can you could say I'm cutting the vegetables because I want to cook. But cutting the vegetables is one moment of your life, it's something you are doing. So, what I suggest is to cut the vegetables uh completely, to dive completely. You are cutting the vegetables, that's it. And then you are cooking, you're not cutting the vegetables for cooking. Um, and the same is for when you are working. When you are when I have a presentation, before often we prepare the uh uh the room, how the chair should be set and the microphone and everything. That moment is as important as the presentation itself. And then the presentation is done, and there comes a moment you talk with the people who organize, some people come with questions. It's as important as the presentation. The before and the after, and then uh I'm going home, and then traveling is as important as everything else. So just dive in it in each action what you want to do, and then the the present moment becomes it becomes the real thing you are you are doing. I'm not so thinking from minute to minute, I'm more thinking from uh from action to action. So my action is now cleaning up, and then the action is traveling, and then the action is preparing, and then the action is taking a breather. So I'm going from action to action. I call it the the beats of time. You go from one beat to the other beat.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Um another step, you know, um in this framework as well is give your full attention to drop-ins, creating a relationship with everything you want to do. Now, we don't live you know in a fantasy world. Interruptions come all the time. A phone call uh in the workspace, especially those who work in open uh spaces, you know, somebody calls your name, uh something there will always be interruptions coming your way. Like you say, it could be an email in the inbox. Um, so it's very hard to keep all of this away. And I think um when people think of focus and time management, a big chunk of it is um avoiding these incoming um things. We call them interruptions. They the the word itself is a it's a negative word, interruptions. You're interrupting a flow of something. Um so and and in a book, you advise us to give our full attention to interruptions uh that come between us and our main activity. So, how do we handle these drop-ins without allowing them to escalate into multitasking? Something that you know you mentioned in your book and something that a lot of research has shown that it's not the most productive thing to indulge in, right? So, how do we give our attention to interruptions without that escalating into multitasking?

SPEAKER_02 52:20

Well, there are two things that are important in this question. The first thing is to avoid interruptions. So look very well at all these interruptions if you want to have them. For example, I have put off most of the notifications of my phone uh only by uh uh by um uh noise. I can only have my children uh calling me. And if not, there cannot be interruptions coming from my phone. I can look on my phone and then I see, oh, someone called me or oh, someone um sent me a WhatsApp, but I don't hear it. So it doesn't disturb me. The same thing is with people around me. When people are around me, I tell them, no, I want to work for, for example, one and an hour, one hour and a half, I want to be concentrated. If you have any questions, uh please wait for them for one and a half hour, and then I'm ready to answer them. When there is something very serious, okay, you may you may ask it, but if not, I want to work one and a half hour. And um, so I'm trying to avoid as much as much as possible the interruptions. And I show it also to my surroundings that I don't want to be interrupted. People who may interrupt me, they know. I have said to them, You you can you may interrupt me for this or that. They know. And then when the interruption is happening, then I have a very I give I give to this person that interrupts me, I give him full attention. So for example, when it's a colleague with something working in the same space and he can interrupt me, then uh he comes to me and asks me, Hey Paul, uh can you get give me an explanation about this? Then I say to him, one moment, I I finished, I finished this, so I finished it, I'm ready. Let's do one thing at a time and finish it. And then I switch completely to the person asking me a question, and I say, What uh tell me about it. And now listening to him, and I'm again do one thing at a time and finish it. I'm completely with this other person. And he tells me, Well, I need an explanation about this, and then or I give him directly the explanation. When it's short, I will do it. But what's when it's long, when I think we need a half an hour for this, I say to him, Well, uh, let's make an appointment for it. Uh I finish this in three-quarters of an hour, and uh when you come at that moment, I I can give you a half an hour time to resolve this question. Okay, thank you. And he will go and I go back to my work. The stress will come at the moment that I resist. So, for example, when uh when I'm very concentrated on something and someone is interrupting me, I will uh I don't want to be interrupted. So I become stressed, and I don't really listen to the other person. I I I am only half listening because with the other half I want to be and what I'm doing. And that's stress. And then because of this stress, I will be I will have a lot of difficulties to refine my creativity uh after the interruption. But when the interruption is switching 100%, and I come back 100%, I will be uh it's if it is as if there was no interruption, because I accepted it completely. And so afterwards I can continue with the same creativity I had before.

SPEAKER_01 56:10

Yeah. Interesting, because I think you know this idea of context switching, right? Where you completely switch from one thing to another. And I um, you know, I I've come across some studies that show the cost that happens, right? Um when we switch uh from task to task, not in a multitasking, in a pure multitasking approach, but this idea of switching back and forth uh between between things. Um, you know, we we lose some sort of uh energy along the way um when we do that, um, that you know powers some of our focus. And so in what ways is this state of surrender, so to speak, to the incoming uh a better strategy when we are focused on our one thing, meaning to focus on one thing and making the switch. Um how does that fit into some of what you know the scientists say in terms of this the cost associated with uh uh with the switch?

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Well, I I agree that there is a cost, and the cost is the much higher is the cost when uh when you're doing more complicated things. So when you're doing very something very complicated, uh complicated, you you don't want to be interrupted. And that's also the reason why I say avoid interruptions. But um when you are interrupted and you switch fully, you will have less stress. The stress comes out not of not out of the fact of being interrupted, but out of the fact that you don't want to be interrupted. So when I'm I'm concentrated on something and someone is interrupting me, I feel stress. The stress is I don't want to be interrupted, don't ask me this question. And then this person is asking me this question, and I I have a resistance because I want to continue what I'm doing, and that's the stress, and that makes that you are losing the flow. But when you switch 100%, you're not losing the flow. Your creativity just made uh smell pause, and then I switch 100%, and then I come back. I was calm here, and I'm calm there, and I come back, and my creativity will continue. I will stay in the flow. So when you switch 100%, uh this thing of being having lost a lot of your concentration and your ideas and your creativity will not happen.

SPEAKER_01 58:43

Um something else, you know, uh one of the seven steps. Um you you say be aware of you know knowing rats and transform them into white sheep. Now, metaphors are powerful, you know, and quite useful. Um so when you talk about you know the undesirable incoming, you refer to them as knowing rats. Why did you use rats as the metaphor here?

SPEAKER_02 59:12

I think we use I use the word rats because uh when our children were small, we had rats as uh as house animals, and they are very nice. We always had two rats. And uh I remember me one day uh there was one rats that doesn't live so long, so long, only two years. And we had only one rat one rat left. And my wife let this rat uh walk freely around in the house, so he it becomes the more and more freedom because she she did care. Oh the Mia is alone now and she should have more freedom, and so and a certain I I still can remember. One day we couldn't find Mia because every night we put Mia back into her cage, but we couldn't find her, and then we said, Okay, we are going to sleep, and well, we will find Mia back tomorrow morning, and then so we were in our bed and we were sleeping, and middle of the night, under our bed, under our bed, Mia the rat was uh having some meal. She had found some uh uh some meal from the cat, and she was eating it under our bed. So we heard crack, crack, crack. It was a gnowing rat. And I thought this is a very good good uh image for what happens when you awake during the night thinking, oh I should uh I should do this, and I have not done it, and oh, I'm terrible, and uh that you have, in fact, to a bigger project uh uh uh a negative relationship. A gnowing red is a bigger post, bigger project that you postpone because you have not a good relationship to it. And transforming them into white sheep doesn't mean that you are going to do them immediately, but it means that you are going to explore them why you have a bad relationship with this gnawing red. What is the element in it? Why do you postpone it? Is it because it's it's a lot of work? Is it because there is some knowledge lacking? It's because your fear you are not able to do it very well. Um what's the reason? What's the and when you discover this reason, just look it in face. And when you look it in face, it will calm down. And then this calming down means that your gnowing red is transforming into a white sheep. And a white sheep means it is into your subconsciousness. Um, it is into your subconsciousness, and at the moment you bring something into your subconsciousness, the subconsciousness will start a process, and that's very important in time surfing. It will start a process, and we call this process um unconscious thinking. So it's thinking without being conscious that you are thinking. The gnoming red is now a white sheep, it's in it's into your subconsciousness, and your subconsciousness starts thinking. What do I know about this? Do I have had in the past some similar actions that are, can I compare to this action I want to do in the future? Is there some similarity? Is there some association possible, but something that I have done in the past? And all these reflections are happening without your being conscious about it. And then a couple of days later, or maybe the afternoon, you have a good idea. You have a good idea that, and this good idea happens during a breever. During a briever, you think, oh, I should start doing this. This is the good good way to start it. And the next day you are talking to someone, and oh, I didn't remember, but this person doesn't know something about this theme. I could ask him. And so you see good occasions, you are conscious of good occasions, and then the theme starts working into your consciousness and into your subconsciousness, and it becomes a very creative project that uh at a certain moment you say, and now I'm going to do it, I'm going to bring it forward, and it uh and you your intuition puts it on your timeline. This is the moment I'm going to do it. This is the way, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:45

I like that. Um, and and something else that you say is, you know, limiting beliefs um can also uh act as these rats, right? Um, and and so how how can we cultivate self-awareness to get to a point of clarity on our own self-limiting beliefs that are some version of these, you know, knowing rats?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:09

Well, the first step to make is to be conscious you have them. What are your limiting beliefs? So that's one question, it's one of the questions you ask yourself to transform gnoing rats. For example, a limiting belief can be I have to do it on my own. Or a limiting belief can be it have to be it has to be done in one time. Uh and the first thing is to be aware of this limiting belief. And then when you are aware of it, you uh also you should accept it. You should accept your limiting beliefs, not not struggling against them, but you should accept them, seeing them, being uh I always suggest to be compassionate to your limiting beliefs and to to not create a hostile relationship with yourself. So uh you see it, and okay, you have limiting beliefs, and but then you're going to formulate what is your desired belief. My desired belief could be I can do it together with other people, or your desired belief could be I can take some time, I can do it in several several steps. That's my desired belief, and then the desired belief you make a relationship with this desired belief, and the more and more it will uh grow into yourself and it will come in the place of this limited belief without struggle.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:41

Um an interesting thing, I think, for you know those who are listening. Um I think something that you know uh you you told me that I found quite interesting that you know the the Ministry of Security was it a Ministry of Justice and Security? Yeah, yeah, the Ministry of Justice and Security in the Netherlands. uh actually called you in to do this training for them, you know. So so I guess for anyone who's skeptical that how would this work, um, you know, it it doesn't get any more formalized than government and and and even they are open to um this idea of time surfing. Something else that you mentioned as well in the uh in the book is this idea that an emotion wants to be felt. Again, speaking of an emotion as you know its own living thing, um how how do we get to a place of less shame, less fear, and less guilt when dealing with emotions? Because I think a lot of emotion avoidance behavior is because there's shame. I don't want to feel this way or I shouldn't feel this way or I shouldn't be experiencing this emotion. Especially if there are undesirable emotions that we think I shouldn't be, I shouldn't be angry about this, I shouldn't feel disappointed. I shouldn't be sad. I shouldn't be grieving you know at the this loss. So how do we get to a point where we're more open to embrace this idea that an emotion wants to be felt and we truly feel and accept the emotion of the moment.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:15

Yeah. Yeah you you in fact you're talking about the sixth instruction of time serving and the sixth instruction is um it's also by doing one thing at a time do one thing at a time and finish it. It's the first instruction so there are a lot of instructions about how you can be what can take your in your attention away from this one thing. And one thing that can take away your attention are your uh your emotions and you have a lot of when you're very caring about it for example you make yourself a lot of a lot of uh emotional stress about a child about one of your children that uh is maybe uh 14 15 years old and doesn't listen so well to you and okay you have a lot of uh thoughts about this child or maybe your parents your parents are becoming old and you're all the time thinking about your your father your old father how you can help him or a friend a friend has become ill for example and all the time you're thinking about a friend so you can be interrupted by your emotions that's the sixth sixth instruction observe background programs right yeah yeah the uh and this observe background programs I think that's the step right yeah this I call it background programs because when you when you uh look very precisely at them you you realize that your thoughts has become like fever you're not uh anymore thinking calmly about something but you are thinking with fever about something so it's like if you are if if water is pressed down and the steam that's your thoughts the steam that's coming out your thoughts are like steam and when you when you try to analyze this why this is happening you realize that under your thoughts under this steam steam thoughts the steaming thoughts that are very very turbulent under these thoughts you have an emotion and the emotion is for example with children uh or it's uh most of the time it's fear the underlying emotion you fear that something will happen to your child or you fear that you cannot help your father and that he is alone too alone or you fear that your friend that's ill that uh he uh he will suffer under his illness so mostly it's fear and first thing I have to say when I when we're talking about emotions uh then we could make a complete uh second podcast and talk one and a half hours about emotions to explain it very well so I try to to explain something on the base but uh I'm conscious that I cannot explain the whole thing about emotion but something on the basis when you have fear most of the people don't like fear you don't like fear and so what you are going to do is you're going to block the fear and you are going not only to block the fear you're going also to block the your thoughts about the situation and because you block the fear and you say you say to yourself I don't want this situation I don't want my child to be to do to not do what I want to do I don't want my father to be ill I don't want my friend to be ill I don't want this situation and uh um I don't want this emotion of fear either and that causes the stress then you block and because you block your thoughts start uh start becoming like fever become turning around and turning in circles and I call this background programs. So what you have to do is not calm down your background programs you should observe them in my vision just observe them not going with them but observing them and at the same time you should feel your fear you should accept your fear your fear is uh giving you a sign your fear is telling to you take care when it's very simple your fear tells take care and when you are not obstructing yourself not blocking yourself against this fear then the fear will pass away it will stay for a moment in your body because it gives you the message take care and then it will go away because it has given you the message and you become calm again and out of this calmness you can act very well you can act better. So then when you are calm again you will say okay I know my child is now 14 50 years old it is a certain period of life it will discover life and it's clear that me as a parent I'm but I I maybe I can act out of confidence and the best thing to do is to have confidence in my child. And then when you act like that your child will come back to you and will tell you what it's discovering and uh and you will have a better relationship with your child or with your father you would say well um how can I organize well that is the less alone possible for example so you become clear and your fear is calm down and your thoughts also are coming down. That's the sixth instruction. And and is that what what you call the uh the right order of integration where you say you know most people tend to uh think first and then feel but you say feel first and then think yeah it's quite complicated with emotions but for me in situations in situations it's feel first and think then your fear and for example when you say emotions like shame and guilt that are that are emotions that are I call them uh not primary emotions but secondary emotions of the first emotions is often fear and when you block this emotion when you say I don't want to fear then it becomes shame or it becomes guilt. For example you make a mistake you make a mistake and then you say oh I made a mistake oh I'm so oh so stupid for me you're blocking you don't want to have made this mistake you're you're blocking oh I don't want to have done this and um and then you become you you you develop guilt or uh you develop shame oh well I'm so stupid I'm so stupid but when you go one step deeper then you see that your primar emotion was fear it was from I've made a mistake it's fear and when you accept having made this mistake it's uh accepting uh uh a feeling that's not so so not so nice to feel but you accept it then it passes away and at the same time when it passes away you are digesting the fact that you have made an error and afterwards you will think okay I made an error I learned from it next time I will do it like this and now I'm in the next step and you don't stay all the time on blocking your emotion and then acting out of guilt of out of shameless for me it's just a step to make 10 minutes maybe five minutes and then you accept it and then you you react.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:09

Yeah um another step as well that you know in this time surfing is use your intuition when choosing what to do. Now you say you know using your intuition to make choices also means you do things at the right time which you explained at the very beginning of our conversation and as a result you're always fueled by inspiration. So what what about those people whose schedules are and things on their desk are controlled and decided by other people right so say it's hard for me to have a wish list because these are not my wishes these are wishes somebody else put on mine or my you know into my life into my work desk um how how how do they um take these things that are coming from the outside and personalize them to make them their own?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:02

Yeah that's also a good question.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:04

It's uh some people their work is to deal with drop-ins so when you are uh on a secretary work for example uh when you're sitting on a desk and people are coming to you you your work is to to answer on drop-ins and then this uh fourth instruction about drop-ins is your most important instruction that means uh uh accept completely drop-ins give them full full response but also be capable of saying to a person wait one moment I just first finished this then it's to you and um I would suggest to these people also to create some time during the day where you don't have drop-ins so create somewhere a couple of hours where you are where you not have drop-ins and where you can do um because you still have to do a lot of work with the all the drop-ins that came in and you can do them in these two hours and these two hours uh you again you can do them on your intuition which you are going to do first what's the most important how do you want do you want to organize it you do it on your intuition and also the way you answer a person and the way you are going to react on it you can also use your intuition but in fact you are right telling the people who are uh whose work is uh dealing with drop-ins they can less use their intuition as for example creative people yeah um well so as we're drawing uh the end of our conversation um I want to talk a bit about deadlines and I think actually in your book was very funny when you talked about a bit of the history of the word deadline um and and how it came to be a word that we use um but you say there are even those who claim they can't get anything done without it meaning the deadline uh as if the stress of a deadline is essential to their performance uh the people will say you know I'm a last minute man uh I'm at my most creative when I run out of time that idea of adrenaline that you talked about earlier as well uh you know it's uh I think in when I do this uh you know time management training you know I start by talking about different personalities of people have with time and there's one that the one that most people raise their hands is a firefighter you know someone who's always putting out fires and there are people who like that excitement of putting out fires um so but you say this approach is nothing more than a story an old story and a story that's deeply ingrained into our habits and you say that there is another more efficient energy efficient way to look at you know these ideal times to finish our tasks so my question is how can we develop what what what relationship should we develop with deadlines so to speak yeah but deadlines is a it's again this question of adrenaline when you when we are talking about firefighters um then you are in the middle of the in the middle of the fight and you have a lot of adrenaline and you should have it because it's danger so it's it's danger and it's it's right to have this adrenaline into your into your blood.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:36

But with deadlines um when you let them uh there there is one very important moment on a deadline that mostly we forget and it's also a moment where there is some adrenaline and that's the moment that's the very beginning of the deadline that's on the moment the task is coming into your life a person is calling you by phone and telling you Paul do you want to make a presentation for this kind of people in two weeks and I say about a presentation about stress and I say yes I want to do it and I ask some information and so and then the person and then I hang up the phone and at that moment I've when I really observe my body I feel also some stress I feel some stress because I don't still don't know what I'm going to do and um also I'm a little bit unert because I'm going to do a presentation and there's there's some stress this stress will last for maybe a half an hour or one hour in my blood some adrenaline it I call it sprangling energy sprangling energy it's not a negative stress it's a positive stress it's a stress or of being curious or not knowing what's going to happen in the future uh being wondering what can I do and then my suggestion is in this in the very first first hour when you get this new task to stop working and go outside and go for a walk so my suggestion is take a breather go outside take a walk and during this walk you ask yourself what do I want to do what I'm going to do which ideas do I have already about this theme? Which knowledge am I lacking about? And where where do I need help? And um is there something I don't want to do um and do I have negative um negative convictions and when you ask these questions in the first half hour first hour then immediately the the new task is entering into your subconsciousness it's becoming a white sheet and then the the the task will develop itself very naturally and creatively going towards the moment you are going to are going to do this presentation. So for me my my my suggestion would be start at the very first moment entering the theme with using this sprinkling energy from the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:28

Wow um thank you thank you Paul for such an insightful and meaningful conversation now there is a question that we ask all of our guests uh it's called the one one one what is the one book that you wish you read earlier in your life or career um so the assumption here is that the book was published it could be a book that came out last year uh so for example Oliver mentioned your book but you know your book is a fairly recent one um but uh he wish it was available you know years or years ago um what is the one habit uh that you wish you had developed earlier in your life as well and what is the one personal value that you will not compromise no matter the cost the one-on-one yeah yeah so it it's nice because you told me about this question and also that uh Oliver Bergman suggested my book um as the the book he would have read read before so I was thinking about which which book when I I would I I didn't know you would ask me this question so I was thinking which book would I would I suggest and then I was thinking my answer is in fact that I don't think like like this this is not my way of thinking I don't think about the past as something that I should have done differently and um there are a lot of things happened in my life I made mistakes I made mistakes I would made things that I should have that now with the knowledge I have now I would maybe have done differently but um I don't think in these terms because this action in the past it permits it permitted me to think differently afterwards because I made something in this way afterwards I could correct it and go the other way.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:19

And so I'm not thinking about this book I should have read before because it would only cost me stress in my head that I I would uh feel myself guilty not having been more more more uh quicker than that so I I don't think like this I know there are a lot of books that I'm I'm not capable uh reading because I read other books so I would like to read a lot of books and people tell me oh this book and I think oh I would like to read it but what I'm reading is mostly books about Zen Zen meditation so I read the book for example one of the most important Zen authors is uh Master Dogen and he lived in the year 1200 and when you read a text about Dogen mostly I read uh one page maybe maybe less and then already I'm thinking I'm thinking and I want to digest it what he said I want to let it come into my system and digest it so it takes I'm a very slow reader. When I read a book uh I'm I'm all when I read an interesting book it it's all the all the time in dialogue with me and uh um after I have read three four pages I want to stop it because I want to digest it and to to the to be in a relationship to let the thoughts that I had about it enter and do their work. Good this said a book I would suggest to everybody a book I like a lot is the book from Harari about uh about the human development he he has written a book it's it's is that sapiens yes it's uh sapiens is really a great book because you see how how our Homo sapiens we how how we how we behaved ourselves on uh on earth and and came to what we were what we are now so I think that's a very very interesting book that's a good suggestion an habit a habit and what's your question exactly what habits I I guess if I was to reframe the question after your explanation um the one habit maybe you're grateful you practice today yeah that I follow my intuition that you follow your intuition that I follow my intuition and that I have confidence in my intuition with with the uh the remark that I have to feed my intuition my intuition doesn't work when I don't feed it we didn't talk a long time about feeding your intuition but feeding your intuition means that um um that I enter well in all my future desires and future things that I'm I'm I'm really into it and then I can float on my intuition and follow it and doing exactly the right task at the right moment. So that that would be the habit and and the personal value that you will protect um at all cost the personal value um yeah I would say for me my personal value that is most important is my Zen practice and my Practice is um a value to taking this posture and and taking this posture and letting my thoughts pass by. The value is that um my deepest values come out of my practice. So my deepest values are not something they're coming out of my rational mind. For example, a value could be I have to help other people, but what's helping other people? Sometimes it's good to help someone, sometimes it's good to not help someone. You help them the best to not help him. That can be the best help. So um the value must come directly out of your intuition, also. And um the source of this intuition, the best source of this intuition is to uh to practice meditation, let pass by your your superficial thoughts and making contact with your your deepest source and letting the letting your values come out of this deeper source.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:12

Well, thank you, thank you, Paul. Um we have come to the end of our conversation. I uh I I appreciate you making the time to to have this conversation with me. Um and to our dear listeners, uh, this has been the YLED podcast, and I'm your host, Ben Odin. Thank you, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:36

This podcast is brought to you by YLead Consultancy. We're dedicated to helping organizations develop leaders who inspire conviction, commitment, and congruence. If your organization wants to develop leaders worth following, please email us at yodak as the yod at why leadathers dot com. That is yodak at why leadathers.com or visit our website at www.yleadhers.com.