Ben Owden engages in a profound conversation with Oliver Burkeman, the insightful author of the New York Times bestselling book, Four Thousand Weeks. A book Adam Grant called, the most important time management book of all time.
The discussion delves into the societal glorification of busyness, exploring the ironic guilt associated with idleness. Oliver addresses the discomfort of slowing down and the necessity of embracing the poignancy of life's trade-offs. The conversation extends to the joy of missing out (JoMo) and the empowering act of closing doors to focus on what truly matters. Oliver shares wisdom from his book, drawing from diverse perspectives, including Aristotle and modern productivity insights. The episode concludes with reflections on cultivating habits that prioritize intuition over obligation and the enduring value of empathy in navigating the human experience.
Oliver's Book - Four Thousand Weeks: https://a.co/d/c87rWyl
Oliver's Email Newsletter Subscription: www.oliverburkeman.com
Oliver's Twitter: https://twitter.com/oliverburkeman
Ben Owden's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/benowden/
To book Ben to train your teams: yoda@whyleadothers.com
Ben Owden engages in a profound conversation with Oliver Burkeman, the insightful author of the New York Times bestselling book, Four Thousand Weeks. A book Adam Grant called, the most important time management book of all time.
The discussion delves into the societal glorification of busyness, exploring the ironic guilt associated with idleness. Oliver addresses the discomfort of slowing down and the necessity of embracing the poignancy of life's trade-offs. The conversation extends to the joy of missing out (JoMo) and the empowering act of closing doors to focus on what truly matters. Oliver shares wisdom from his book, drawing from diverse perspectives, including Aristotle and modern productivity insights. The episode concludes with reflections on cultivating habits that prioritize intuition over obligation and the enduring value of empathy in navigating the human experience.
Oliver's Book - Four Thousand Weeks: https://a.co/d/c87rWyl
Oliver's Email Newsletter Subscription: www.oliverburkeman.com
Oliver's Twitter: https://twitter.com/oliverburkeman
Ben Owden's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/benowden/
To book Ben to train your teams: yoda@whyleadothers.com
00:19.16
Ben Owden
What if we could learn to enjoy uncertainty? Embracing security becoming familiar with failure and even learning to value death. What if we just stopped trying to be so darn positive all the time? Our guest today will help us figure this one out and much more.
Greetings to you I hope you are doing well and I having a productive and meaningful day welcome to the Why Lead podcast I am your host Ben Owden. Now the average human lifespan is absurdly brief if you live up to eighty years old you will have had about four thousand weeks but that's no reason for despair because our guest today says confronting our radical finitude and how little control we really have is the key to fulfilling and mourn. And meaningfully productive life. Um, in fact, Adam Grant called his book the most important book ever written about time management and as someone who's actually read the book I definitely concur with that message. He's the author of the book. The antidote happiness for people who can't stand positive thinking in four thousand weeks time management for more tools ladies and gentlemen Oliver Burkeman bookman Oliver Burkeman welcome
04:34.17
Oliver Burkeman
Thank you so much for that lovely introduction and for this invitation I'm really happy to be here.
04:38.41
Ben Owden
Yeah, um I mean the titles of you know your books are quite interesting because they just draw you in. Um and you know to actually figure out what is this person trying to say um and I think if we start with the antidote right? Um, you talk about this concept of you know-how. Basically the downside of trying to look on the bright side. We live in a world today where self-help has become you know the form of literature. A lot of people are consuming especially the working class people because we believe that you know this is how I'm going to level up and go to the next level and you know better myself and become a better person.
05:00.00
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah.
05:14.25
Oliver Burkeman
Um.
05:16.41
Ben Owden
Become rich, become wealthy live a meaningful life. You know, um, make lots of money all of those things. Um, but you say that there's almost like the sense of that the self-help industry is shallow and.
05:33.51
Ben Owden
To a degree not delivering on what it promises right? and and that it won't make you happier actually at the end of the day. Um, you know and you know when you talk about some of the classics in self-help books. Um, that people that say you know these are must read books you know things like you know the 7 habits of highly effective people how to win friends and.
05:45.13
Oliver Burkeman
Um, even.
05:51.67
Ben Owden
Influence people and all of that stuff. So I think can you I Guess what led you to arrive at this conclusion right? What led you to say you know what actually everybody's heading in this direction but I don't really think this is how things should be I don't think this is how.
05:53.70
Oliver Burkeman
Um.
06:09.76
Ben Owden
Um, it ought to be um and you know how how did that shift happen for you.
06:16.24
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah, it's a great question I mean I I have been on that the the sort of um, embarrassing truth I suppose that I have to admit of course is that I When you're sort of writing about self-help culture and these self-help books as I have been.. It's not because you just think they're worthless right? because because you don't end up writing about things that you just think are worthless. You I've written about them and explored them because I kind of have a very ambivalent relationship with them like I do want those those things that they promise and I have.
06:36.84
Ben Owden
Um, and.
06:50.86
Oliver Burkeman
Ah, different stages in my life struggled with you know, wanting to be happier or more fulfilled or feel like I'm more in control of my time. So what I've really ended up doing is um, having lots of opportunities. Thank very good fortune of writing a column for the Guardian newspaper and other things like this to sort of experiment with what is offered there.
07:02.38
Ben Owden
Are.
07:10.80
Oliver Burkeman
And and to try to tease apart. You know on the 1 hand very good goals. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be happier or to you know, level up your performance or productivity. These are good goals. But then there are a lot of overly simplistic um approaches to. Ah, to to achieving that there are a few kind of you know, openly fraudulent and deceptive approaches to achieving that. Um, and it's just a lot more sort of complicated ah because we as humans are a lot more complicated I think than we than we think so you know it's been a sort of process of personal. Experimentation and in a way I use writing about these things as a kind of therapy in public I think really I'm trying to work through my own work through my own issues. Ah by by exploring these things and yeah, there's been this kind of throughline. Um.
07:57.27
Ben Owden
Um, yeah.
08:08.50
Oliver Burkeman
Which has got clearer and clearer and I think is in my most recent book as well that there's something about trying to sort of control things trying to run your life by your shit through sheer force of will um ah trying to sort of.
08:17.70
Ben Owden
Um, go.
08:28.25
Oliver Burkeman
Plan everything out map it out and then implement it all that kind of very ego-focused approach to life. There's something about that that is very encouraged by the the time in which we live but but which only goes so far and can very easily become ah counterproductive. Um.
08:36.14
Ben Owden
Yeah.
08:44.28
Ben Owden
Are.
08:47.53
Oliver Burkeman
So that you actually feel more overwhelmed and less happy and ah more anxious about the future and all the rest of it actually because you are trying so hard to kind of dominate reality in this way I don't claim. There's anything brand new about this insight.
08:52.38
Ben Owden
I.
09:02.00
Ben Owden
Um.
09:05.26
Ben Owden
Are.
09:07.38
Oliver Burkeman
I think it is there in a lot of ah lots of eastern spiritual traditions for example, taoism and buddhism is quite central and lots of others as well. Um, it's just that you know I think there's a place to sort of articulate that in the context of our lives today. So.
09:25.50
Ben Owden
Yeah, and what do you think? is you know I guess wrong with this dominance of you know the positivity thinking um reemergence I would say.
09:25.91
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah, that's the story.
09:39.80
Ben Owden
That's taking place in the world.
09:40.78
Oliver Burkeman
Well I guess that to to sort of 0 in specifically on the positive thinking part of this you know, very straightforwardly you you cannot decide what to feel by deciding which thoughts you're going to have in your head right? This is ah this is a point about. Mental control has been endlessly studied and in the book I give this example of a very classic experiment where you sort of challenge somebody to ah not think about a polar bear and of course if you tell somebody to not think about a polar bear.
10:12.72
Ben Owden
Um, they'll think about the wellap and yeah.
10:13.52
Oliver Burkeman
Or not think about anything else. All you can do is think about that thing right? or kind of you know, fill your mind in a very sort of stressful way with other things in an attempt not to let any polar bears sneak in. Um, so so that's just a very simple example of this fact that like you know.
10:23.19
Ben Owden
Yeah, yeah.
10:30.90
Oliver Burkeman
If You then say well I'm only going to think happy thoughts I'm only going to focus on success I'm only going to focus on the idea that what I'm doing is going to work out. Um, almost by definition right? You're then just like setting up this internal surveillance process where you have to keep monitoring yourself for. Any Scrap of a negative thought or any scrap of um, a thought of failure that the alternative to that I think is not just like being really negative and depressed and pessimistic all the time but the alternative is being sort of um, able to accommodate the.
11:01.62
Ben Owden
And.
11:09.11
Oliver Burkeman
The highs and the lows the positive thoughts and the negative thoughts in your in your mind and be like okay I don't know for certain that this thing I'm that I'm working on is going to work out. Um I I accept that you know the next few months will probably bring sadness as well as happiness in my life and if you can. Cultivate that spirit a bit more. You're actually much more resilient for going and doing cool stuff right? and and having some successes because you're not you. You don't want to make it. You don't want to make like half of the human emotional experience. The negative half. You don't want to make that kind of radioactive so that you're.
11:31.99
Ben Owden
And.
11:47.18
Oliver Burkeman
So that it's kind of um, something terrible if has gone something gone wrong if you feel sad about something like it hasn't That's just being human.
11:52.60
Ben Owden
Yeah, yeah, embracing the you know holistic human experience and then of course you you you propose this negative path to happiness and you speak about you know, developing negative capacity and I think.
11:58.90
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah.
12:07.15
Oliver Burkeman
Um, you know.
12:11.47
Ben Owden
1 that really interests me this idea of like an opcher right? where you're not aiming to resolve things you know, um, anxiety is not to be resolved. It's not about putting and putting an end to anxiety putting an end to emotions that we have called negative but it's just about.
12:13.98
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah.
12:26.48
Oliver Burkeman
Right.
12:30.62
Ben Owden
Learning to live. It's you know it's it's it's It's almost like that idea of you know you're not playing a finite game with how you feel rather you're embracing that you know this is it's It's part of the experience. Um I don't have to.
12:31.98
Oliver Burkeman
Um, yeah.
12:41.89
Oliver Burkeman
Um, yeah.
12:49.70
Ben Owden
End it tomorrow I don't have to you know because I think sometimes that has to put a lot of anxiety. Um, and even when you talk about mental Health We have developed this prescriptive approach meaning that if I seek counseling. It's because something is falling apart and so I have to you know, put an end to it if I have to.
12:58.21
Oliver Burkeman
If.
13:07.51
Ben Owden
Be healthy, you know with my body. It's because um, the doctor has given me a diagnosis. So always you know, looking to fix the fixer mentality so to speak. Um rather than just you know having this sense of you know, just ah, you know it's a stream of water and we're just flowing. We're just going. We'll see where this goes right.
13:26.55
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, it's this idea I think you put that really? well. It's this idea of treating broadly speaking I think it's this idea of sort of treating life as ah as a problem to be solved or figured out. Um, and.
13:27.51
Ben Owden
So.
13:43.50
Oliver Burkeman
Obviously there are lots of problems in life that need solving or figuring out. But but if you treat life itself in that way so that you're sort of um you know you always need to try to get closure on everything you need to kind of I think In. Just to just to look at the case of like productivity stuff right? It's only one area of this but a lot of us who are kind of into these ideas about time management and personal organization and the rest of it. It's like we're always looking for the the set of routines or equipment or whatever it is that once we get there. It's like plain sailing.
14:17.63
Ben Owden
And.
14:18.23
Oliver Burkeman
For the rest of life and I think sometimes people think seek this in other areas of life too right? They think like right now my personal life. My romantic life is kind of messy but I'm going to get to a place where it's like problem free forever or I'm going to.
14:32.54
Ben Owden
Um, he.
14:33.66
Oliver Burkeman
You know, right now I've got to work through the ranks of this organization. But when I get to that promotion. It's going to be smooth for the rest of my life and of course it's never smooth because like that's not what what life is but but that fantasy of almost being at the place where thing where the problems have have gone away is um. Is very powerful. It's very seductive. Um and it keeps us kind of anxiously worrying and trying to get to that place and it actually stops you from finding some enjoyment and meaning right? where you are. It's not.. It's not that you shouldn't try to do more cool things and you know. Have better work better relationships more money. Whatever it's that it's that notion where you sort of tell yourself when I get to that point then I'm be fulfilled but right now I'm not. That's a very ah that's a very counterproductive place to end to end up in.
15:28.24
Ben Owden
Um, and.
15:30.67
Oliver Burkeman
So you sort of need to be able to say hey there'll probably always be some kind of problems in my life and I probably always will feel a bit uncertain and anxious about this or that Whatever whatever it might be so okay, fair enough now. What's the most meaningful thing to do today. You know.
15:40.62
Ben Owden
Yeah, yeah, and and you know what? what sort of I guess values should we develop to embrace uncertainty and you know and especially uncertainty is something to not be solved. Because they'll always be uncertainty right? You you know you get a job and suddenly you know your mother is diagnosed with a chronic illness and suddenly you know there's a breakthrough there and then something else Happens. So How do we? What sort of values. Do We need to have to make sure to become the kind of people who embrace. Uncertainty as a core part of our life that will always be there instead of you know people who try to fight and Overthrow. You know.
16:22.32
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah I think it's it's yeah, it's so interesting because I think a big part of it is like on the one hand we're talking here as if this way of living requires a certain kind of courage right? like you have to be willing to deal with uncertainty you have to be willing to not seek the easy recourse to. To comfort and certainty and that's true, but on the other hand I think it does actually require a certain spirit of being sort of friendly towards yourself right? because I think that a lot of people who are driven and who want to be successful. They're sort of. Telling themselves that they need to do more that they have to um, ah you know face up to the reality of life and and actually it's just like that's just the way being human is right? It's like you don't have a choice but to have but to be uncertain about the Future. You can either struggle. Against that fact or you can accept it. But it's just the way it is and we're all in the same Boat. So I think that there's a kind of um I'm always keen to try to find a kind of ah a more gentle side to this because I think it's possible and for example in the kind of newly fashionable.
17:31.48
Ben Owden
Are.
17:40.73
Oliver Burkeman
Rediscovery of stoicism I think sometimes you get which is very useful and valuable I think but you sometimes get this sense of like okay I'm going to make myself invulnerable to you know all the difficulties of life and all the emotional ups and downs and like that's not the point either. The point is just like.
17:49.80
Ben Owden
Yeah.
17:59.86
Oliver Burkeman
We are um you know here we are in this in this kind of human situation and so it's really just a question of like not beating yourself up for the fact that you can't be certain about the future or you can't eliminate problems from your life right? So it's like.
18:01.61
Ben Owden
Are.
18:18.40
Ben Owden
Um, Thousand are.
18:18.90
Oliver Burkeman
Problems are going to exist. There's no need to turn the existence of them into another problem where you say like not only is this bad thing happening to me but no bad things should be happening to me. Yeah.
18:22.35
Ben Owden
Yeah, yeah. Yeah I like that because I think you know something that you also talk about as Well. It's how the need the need for efficiency and you know how even organizations as a matter of fact, you know the idea that there's a lot of attention given to this concept of time management and efficiency and productivity. In a sense. You know you say it serves um a hidden emotional agenda right? which is this need for control. We want to be in control and I think if that's not addressed I can see that and because I've been there myself I remember you know I'm I'm a.
18:57.43
Oliver Burkeman
Then.
19:00.44
Ben Owden
I have embraced the whole Stoic philosophy you know, trying to be anti-fragile and implementing that in my life. But I think I was doing that as ah as a way to gain more control in my life and and as a result of that I realized that I was actually missing out on you know.
19:03.32
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah, yeah.
19:14.77
Oliver Burkeman
Um, yeah.
19:20.62
Ben Owden
Experiences that could have been a lot more meaningful but because I went in with the mindset that this tool this approach this philosophy this way of thinking will help me be in Control. So I think it's so simple to accept fineitude but also to accept that you're not in control. Um, yeah, that.
19:38.64
Oliver Burkeman
Um, yeah, yeah, no I think that's I think that's right and I think you know, um, it's quite subtle isn't it because it's you're not in control. It's also but that's not quite the same as saying you don't have any influence on the situation. You don't have any agency. In fact, what I have found again and again in my life is that you do sort of have to give up the quest for control in order to have the influence that you that you do have right? So you know just to give a very mundane example. if my attitude to if I've got a lot of work on my plate a lot of long to do list and my attitude to that work is like I am going to get on top of everything I'm going to be in control and feel like I'm the master of all my to do lists and tasks and everything if I have that mindset I'm going to spend the day like. So in a scattered way trying to sort of like answer every little email and deal with every single open loop and and I get more and more sort of um, scattered and exhausted and probably end the day with a longer to do list than I started with and I'll probably not spend time working on the projects that could really move the needle. If I was able instead to say okay, that's an unrealistic form of control I'm going to spend a bit of time on email sure. But I'm going to do other things as well and I'm going to start by putting in a couple of hours on this project that I really care about like by giving up the quest to get total control of the situation.
20:59.14
Ben Owden
Um.
21:11.44
Ben Owden
Ah.
21:11.55
Oliver Burkeman
That's what's actually unlocked the possibility of having some influence on the situation. So it's actually it's It's not that they're they're actually opposites in a way right? Really kind of you know, making an impact in your own life or on the world sort of requires that you don't also expect to.
21:30.96
Ben Owden
Yeah I think in in your book. You say you know there's a very Downto-earth kind of liberation in grasping that there are certain truths about being a limited human from which you'll never be liberated. You don't get to dictate the course of events and the paradoxical reward for accepting Realities Constraints is that.
21:31.32
Oliver Burkeman
Get total control over the world.
21:50.25
Ben Owden
They no longer feel so constraining. So it's that paradox right? where you feel like okay um, acceptance actually you know gives you a lot of freedom to act. So it's almost like this sense of you know your.
21:51.39
Oliver Burkeman
Yes, right.
22:04.47
Oliver Burkeman
Um, yeah, and power. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
22:07.71
Ben Owden
It's outcome independence but outcome Independence actually frees you um to be more invested in what you have chosen to do. Um.
22:16.11
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah, totally yeah, right? Yeah, um, yeah because you're not sort of excuse me because you're not sort of trying to um, you're not frittering all your time and attention away on something that's not Possible. So you have it free to do something that is. Is possible and and you're not making your participation in the world. Um, conditional on that sense of Control. You're saying okay I don't have control and what an interesting um a metaphor that comes up again and again in this context is is ah surfing.
22:39.80
Ben Owden
Are.
22:52.67
Oliver Burkeman
I Have no experience Surfing. So I'm not talking from personal experience. But it's that it's that idea that like if you're interacting with reality in the way that a surfer interacts with the ocean with a wave. Um, you can't just make a plan and carry it out. Ah you can't just. Decide How things are going to go and then make them go that way you have to be very responsive in the moment to exactly what is happening but that's how you do the thing right? You're you're not imposing your will on reality but you're also not just sitting on the beach and doing nothing you're doing something very active.
23:17.13
Ben Owden
Um.
23:29.84
Ben Owden
Um, yeah, yeah, um, something else I think which for me was you know was something that I was aware. But I think it's you know, um like you said he's like you know while it's nothing new. But I think you know some.
23:30.33
Oliver Burkeman
In conjunction with reality instead of sort of against it.
23:46.25
Ben Owden
Truths sort of come at the right time in your life and this simple truth that you know you can't be everywhere at once we know that you know not omnipresent. Um, you can't do everything at once and while there are many you know possible futures not all of them.
23:47.10
Oliver Burkeman
V.
23:54.76
Oliver Burkeman
Yep yep.
24:04.85
Ben Owden
Can be a reality I have to pick a path. Um, so this sense of being limited in the book. You say you know it's irrational to feel troubled by an overwhelming to-do list. You'll do what you can you want to do what you can't and the tyrannical inner voice insisting that you must do. Everything is simply mistaken.
24:06.89
Oliver Burkeman
Um, yeah.
24:14.12
Oliver Burkeman
Here.
24:21.93
Oliver Burkeman
Yes.
24:23.76
Ben Owden
And you know you go on to talk about. You know this sense of acceptance that you want to do everything accept that it's just ah, it's It's a fact you know, um, and so basically we get to. We have to get to a point where you know we don't aim to not drop the ball but aim to know which ball to drop you know, not.
24:32.66
Oliver Burkeman
Yep.
24:40.61
Oliver Burkeman
Yes, right, right.
24:43.13
Ben Owden
To get to a point or we're not aiming to avoid disappointing people but actually having the clarity of who to disappoint. So I guess here the question is how how do we develop this sense of clarity to know what to say not to who to disappoint what ball to drop knowing that that's the reality of life. We can't.
24:47.40
Oliver Burkeman
Right.
25:00.34
Ben Owden
Juggle a thousand balls. You know will drop a few so it's not so much about avoiding you know, um, the no or avoiding to drop the ball but it's about having that clarity of you know this is what I'm going to commit myself to and while this is exciting and flashy and you know attracting especially in this age where. There's the internet. You know you see so many things you're exposed to constant signals everywhere. Um, and if you're not clear and if you're not careful then you're overwhelmed by the choice and you know time flies and before you know it, you know your time is up and your life was filled with meaninglessness because.
25:20.39
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah, yeah.
25:38.77
Ben Owden
You were all over the place and you know there was a sense of meaning that was lacking because you were trying to be productive. Um in ah you know in a toxic way so to speak.
25:44.78
Oliver Burkeman
Um, yeah, yeah, the as for the how I mean that you've expressed that excellently in terms of the how I mean I think that I mean I will say something a bit more concrete than this in a moment but but a. Huge part of this is just the shift in perspective right? It's like it. It's It's like once you see even just a little bit how much of Life. We tend to spend kind of convinced or trying to convince ourselves that we don't have to make these kind of choices. Um.
26:16.68
Ben Owden
Are.
26:19.41
Oliver Burkeman
That we don't have to drop some things in order to focus on others like we put in a huge amount of effort to try to maintain that illusion. We'd make ourselves busier and busier and busier if you can sort of feel your way into like oh white that isn't on the that's not on the cards here right? that that's not something that I can can hope for. You sort of come back down to earth in line with the thing you quoted before and then it gets quite easy to make choices most of the time right? It's like if I ask myself today like um, how I'm going to get through all the things I think I need to finish by the end of today. That's a really panicky. Anxiety inducing question. But if I ask myself? Okay, you know I've got maybe I'm going to have like three more hours work time today. Realistically what's the most important thing to be spending that time on that's a lot of an easier question might still be a little bit difficult. There might be like.
26:59.36
Ben Owden
Um, and.
27:16.34
Oliver Burkeman
2 or 3 things that compete for that. But it's but it's a much calmer kind of question and in the end I find time and again the answer is like once you've whittled it down to a list of like the 3 or 4 things you're most that are really most important to you at the moment it doesn't really matter which one you choose to do next right? Sometimes it does because of deadlines and stuff. But.
27:21.71
Ben Owden
Um, yeah.
27:36.26
Oliver Burkeman
But usually it doesn't usually it's just like progress on any one of those would be would be beneficial. So I think that it's like seeing that you have no option but to neglect most things in order to focus on a handful of them. That's the real productivity technique because then it's like okay well I'll just go forward and do. Some of the things that I know are important in terms of sort of turning that into a technique or a method I think I'm a big fan of lots of kinds of productivity methods that basically involve limiting your your work in progress. So um, you make a sort of conscious decision. To only have a small number of things on your plate at any 1 time and even if there's lots of other stuff that you need to do you sort of separate that off and make it wait. There are lots of ways of doing this but 1 that I mentioned in the book is this idea of having 2 to do lists. 1 is open 1 is closed the open to do list is just like you put everything on it that you need to do or want to do maybe it's got hundreds of items on it right? It's a sort of terrifying long list of everything that is ah in your world at the moment.
28:42.51
Ben Owden
Are.
28:47.77
Oliver Burkeman
But then you also have a second list which is a closed list and that might have just like 5 slots on it say or even 3 8 whatever it doesn't matter a finite small number of of slots and you feed tasks from the long list onto the closed list from the open list onto the close list. And so you can only feed another one on once you've freed up a slot on the clothes list by by doing one of those tasks. So if I'm making identify'm making this clear but it's it's basically kind of ah it's an artificial bottleneck on your on your task so you say okay.
29:16.37
Ben Owden
Yeah.
29:24.41
Oliver Burkeman
Maybe there's 50 things I sort of wish I could do today and ought to be doing in my life but these are the 4 I'm going to focus on and I'm not going to add another one to that list of 4 until I've taken one off by doing it So you sort of you sort of um, push your work through this kind of um, narrow. Ah. Bottleneck And and the result is that it really helps where if you're me it really helps you um, develop the the willingness. It's really a kind of anxiety tolerance to to make all that other stuff wait outside the door while you are focusing just on this handful of things.
30:01.70
Ben Owden
Um.
30:02.71
Oliver Burkeman
It feels like people who want to get everything done and meet their obligations and achieve stuff. It feels like it'll be better for us to like try to focus on 20 of those projects or 40 of them in in reality as we all know from bitter experience I think that doesn't lead to productivity the productivity in the. Real achievement I think comes from from that willingness to make things wait. Um, so so that's one way of sort of ah sort of implementing that. Yeah.
30:28.70
Ben Owden
Yeah I like that because I think it's it's you know it's one you're you're not ignoring all these ideas that are coming as I think we said earlier sometimes shutting that voice is just going to lead to more chaos because it's just going to get louder.
30:44.32
Oliver Burkeman
Right.
30:45.95
Ben Owden
Um, so you're you're writing down. You know there's a list for all these things that are coming up and popping in your mind so you're not living in this constant anxiety of oh I should be doing something because I think sometimes if you completely ignore it then there's this always this creeping anxiety of like.
30:49.61
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah.
31:02.78
Ben Owden
Is something that I should be doing that I'm not doing right? but you know that there's the list here right? but there's ah, there's an order meaning that there's a way of how you know an Itm or to do transitions from this list to to that list. So on 1 hand you know it's almost like a tricking your mind that.
31:05.65
Oliver Burkeman
Yep.
31:19.23
Ben Owden
We'll get to this at some point just not now but we'll get to it and and and here's where it can sit in the present moment. So I like that and I think something else that you also talk about this is idea of you know how business has developed to be like a measure of importance of sorts. In fact.
31:21.87
Oliver Burkeman
Um, yeah.
31:33.18
Oliver Burkeman
Right.
31:36.35
Ben Owden
But lot of people find a lot of pride in saying I'm busy. Um because you know and in. In fact, if you're idle. There is a sense of guilt. Um, why am I not busy doing something. Why am I free to not do anything right? Um, so there's there's the done which is very ironic come to.
31:37.72
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah.
31:46.11
Oliver Burkeman
Yes, yes, yes.
31:55.20
Ben Owden
Think of it. So I guess for people who find it very hard to embrace idleness and nothingness having nothing to do There are people who find it very hard to embrace that. Um, what sort of.
32:04.39
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah, yeah.
32:10.76
Ben Owden
Realities Do they need to embrace what sort of questions they need to ask themselves to get to a point where they are okay with idleness with not doing anything and in fact, having that as you know, just part of the human experience versus living a life of business all throughout.
32:25.36
Oliver Burkeman
Great question I think this this sort of feeds into a broader question. So what it is is that all all these ways of moving into a more present focused and finitude accepting life including the 1 about being willing to rest and. And enjoy time that they all require um, a sort of a willingness to be okay with a certain level of discomfort right? It's the same. It's the same with them with with the thing about making certain tasks wait while you focus on others.
32:54.91
Ben Owden
Um, ah.
33:03.77
Oliver Burkeman
Ah, we what we tend to be doing when we feel anxious about how much we have to do or how far we are from our reaching our goals is we try to get rid of the feeling of anxiety by doing more stuff and I think that really what we need to be doing is is learning to.
33:13.99
Ben Owden
Are me.
33:22.93
Oliver Burkeman
Coexist with that feeling of anxiety while we go ahead and do whatever it is. We actually know is more important focusing on 1 thing rather than another taking a break focusing on our relationships you know, um, instead of trying to get rid of these feelings of of anxiety so this is very ironic.
33:31.27
Ben Owden
Do.
33:40.00
Oliver Burkeman
As you sort of hint because it means saying like if you're somebody who's very driven and you feel like you should be taking a little bit more time to relax and if you actually do that you will find that it doesn't feel great at first right, you will find that um you know. If you decide to just like sit in a chair and read a novel or walk up a hill or something something that's supposed to be wonderfully relaxing. You'll be like oh restless and wait should I be doing isn't there something I should be doing ah my advice if that's you is just to sort of ride that out because it doesn't take long. To really ah to get to the other side of that it doesn't kill you that that feeling of discomfort and it means that you can you can get to the point where you um, where where you're actually happy to be slowing down to the speed of life a little bit but it.
34:22.84
Ben Owden
Are.
34:31.65
Ben Owden
Um, yeah.
34:32.66
Oliver Burkeman
You shouldn't expect it to be immediate because we're all so wired for you know more more more activity.
34:37.76
Ben Owden
Yeah, because it's it's quite ironic because I think it's rest is rest as I guess I guess as the real point of existence is only acceptable at retirement. Only those who are retired are like comfortable to.
34:50.80
Oliver Burkeman
Um, right.
34:55.70
Ben Owden
Just rest every day right? But I think anything anytime prior to that you know either, you're working or your a student rest is you know the work. The studies that you know going to your job. That's the real point of existence and and and I like this portion of your book because you know you talk about this concept of the decline of.
35:12.84
Oliver Burkeman
Then.
35:14.30
Ben Owden
Pleasure and and you know you say a new hierarchy has been formed work now demanded to be seen as the real point of existence leisure was merely an opportunity for recovery and replenishment this the whole idea of the weekend. It's the weekend is really all about gearing up for the following week. Um.
35:22.52
Oliver Burkeman
Um, yeah, right, right? right? yeah.
35:32.49
Ben Owden
Holiday is gearing up for the next thing you know, um, rest is permissible only for the purposes of recupering recuperating for work or perhaps for some other form of self-improvement and that's why most people when they go to holiday you know it's like I have to read a book I have to catch up on this podcast I have to.
35:41.67
Oliver Burkeman
Um, yes.
35:46.83
Oliver Burkeman
With.
35:49.56
Ben Owden
Ah, do this and do that I have to take this course. It's always it's It's a refueeling station for the next leg of the tour but you speak about this sense of actually just looking at rest as just rest. You know it's not.
35:57.46
Oliver Burkeman
Um, yes, yeah.
36:07.56
Oliver Burkeman
Um, right? yeah.
36:08.36
Ben Owden
Up on this other thing but to actually you know not so I think it's It's so hard to change that mindset. Um to just look at rest as rest. Yeah.
36:20.65
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah, totally and I mean I quote in the book. You know, go right back to Aristotle right? This idea that um if you think about it of course leisure should be the ultimate point of life because the only alternative is that.
36:34.60
Oliver Burkeman
A leisure of some kind and of course Aristotle thought doing philosophy was leisure right? Yeah, this doesn't necessarily require us to just be like wasting time or something but at some point of course the meaning of life has to be in what you're doing now because the only alternative is that it's always in what you're. Doing in the future and the future never arrives and then eventually the future runs out because our lives run out. So like when you look at it in this way. It's kind of obvious that at some point we're going to have to be sort of with people we love or doing something we love or in a place that we love whatever it is and being like okay.
37:05.80
Ben Owden
Yeah, yeah.
37:12.88
Oliver Burkeman
This right here is enough for me to say that my life has some some meaning I don't need to get to the next ah stage of it. So I think it's again, it's sort of obvious in a way and I mean this is something that's true of everything I write to this book right? It's on some level. It's really obvious but we.
37:12.98
Ben Owden
Well.
37:22.88
Ben Owden
G.
37:30.90
Oliver Burkeman
Put so much effort into um, not confronting it.
37:33.28
Ben Owden
Yeah, definitely and and and I think given that that flip side of that as well is this you know, wholehearted embrace of convenience. Um, you know convenience is also a means to more productivity you know now I don't have to you know.
37:47.90
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah, yeah.
37:52.70
Ben Owden
Switch up the stove I can just you know put a plate in a microwave and within seconds you know I'm right, It's ready and I can eat and go you know now I can order something online and you know Uber eats or something will just deliver the food. So I think convenience has while it's great. It's simplified life in many degrees but something you also mentioned is that you know.
37:58.49
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah.
38:11.99
Ben Owden
Sometimes convenience shouldn't be the point you know sometimes doing something that seems inconvenient yet meaningful to you personally could be that maybe you know cooking is something that helps you destress something that you know brings a lot of joy and you know it takes two three hours of your time.
38:28.64
Oliver Burkeman
Yep.
38:30.29
Ben Owden
Um, so if you have that convenience. Um, you know mindset and you're trapped in this pursuit of convenience then you know you either hire a cook or you order food. Um, but you've actually removed a portion of your life that you know contributes a lot of meaning.
38:35.70
Oliver Burkeman
And.
38:41.46
Oliver Burkeman
Right? more.
38:49.79
Ben Owden
Ah to you and this could be anything. It could be taking a walk. Um, it could be you know, spending time with people you love it could be ah you know reading? That's ah something that you know brings a lot of joy. But now you're like okay I can read all these novels I have to read self-help books because you know and there's that promotion that's looming somewhere right? Um, so so I think.
39:04.59
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah.
39:08.36
Ben Owden
That's definitely something that you know to to be aware of um and then something else that I also want to touch on is this transition from formal to jomer right? transition from the fear of missing out to the joy of missing out, especially in a world filled with so many choices.
39:19.23
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah.
39:25.90
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
39:28.90
Ben Owden
Um, where sometimes you know you feel like I could be somewhere else I could be doing something else I could be working for a different organization I could be some people are in relationships and there you know like I could be with that other person. There's a constant fear of missing out and it's cultivated by just the abundance of choice that we live in today. Um, but you know you speak about you know the joy of missing out as ah as a tool you know to help you 1 embrace fineitude but at the same time not just embrace it but actually thrive in it.
39:56.47
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah, yeah, No absolutely I mean and I think that you know the thing that always fascinates me about the fear of missing out both in the feeling of fomo and even in that name. There's a sort of implication isn't there that we have to be very worried about missing out and if. And therefore if we try really hard. Maybe we can avoid missing out and of course the truth As soon as you think about our situation is that missing out on almost everything is is guaranteed. It's not something to fear. It's like that's happening. Um.
40:31.50
Ben Owden
Um.
40:33.23
Oliver Burkeman
We are finite. We have fine amount of time we live in a world of sort of so many experiences we could have lives we could we could lead every moment you take a choice make a choice you're you're sort of shutting off all the other life paths you could have taken if you'd done a different one. Um so missing out. Before we get to the joy of it is just like it's just a fact so um, sort of in some sense being tormented by it doesn't really make a lot of a lot of sense I think what I'm talking about with the idea of Jomo is just of um. It's becoming more conscious of what was already the case. So what was already the case was that you'll get to do a handful of things in the world out of the group of things that you could in some in in principle have done and therefore if you're more conscious about that. And you're sort of in a state of acceptance about it. There's a poignancy I think this word poignancy is actually really useful when it's like there's a sadness involved in what you have to not do, but there's a sort of something joyful about that sadness as well, right? so. You know if you to give a very obvious example, if you're if you're if there are sort of certain kinds of social this happens a lot when people sort of get married or settle down with a partner or something right? they sort of they they go from spending a lot of time doing exciting social things to spending more time with one person and.
42:09.22
Oliver Burkeman
Can be tormented by fomo in that moment. But if you bring into consciousness like the fact that some tradeoff is inevitable. You can either. You know, totally neglect your relationship and go and spend every night out clubbing or you can realize that for now you're not gonna be clubbing so much. To nurture a relationship. It actually gives more meaning more There's a kind of affirmation of the choice you do make to be with that person. Ah or to focus on certain kind of work rather than other work right? It applies in all different contexts. Um, there's an affirmation that comes from being like ok yes. I am making a tradeoff here. There's no point denying it and precisely because I'm not denying it that gives an extra level of meaning to the choice that I did make and meanwhile I can relax about fomo not because I'm not missing out but because everybody is always missing out on most stuff all the time anyway.
43:07.15
Ben Owden
Um.
43:08.90
Oliver Burkeman
And there isn't a human being who's getting out of that one. So um, yeah.
43:10.61
Ben Owden
Yeah, and and and I think um, you know as we're drawing to to a close There's a question that I would like to bring to your attention but but I'll ask you this in a while but I just want to like mention it. So you start thinking about it. There's a question that we ask you know pretty much um, all of our guests which is the one one one. What is the 1 ah, book that you wish you read earlier in your life so it could be a book that was published this year over last year but you're like oh man if I only had this book ten fifteen years ago what is the 1 habit that you've developed but you know you wish you had developed that earlier as well.
43:33.61
Oliver Burkeman
Ah, isnt bright.
43:44.31
Oliver Burkeman
E.
43:46.27
Ben Owden
And what is the 1 personal value that you will not compromise no matter the cost. So you know that would be the last question that I'll ask you in a bit but but for now um, you know there's this concept that you talk about which it has become a practice for me this idea of closing doors. Um, you know in in the book. You say you know when you can no longer turn back.
43:50.90
Oliver Burkeman
Okay.
44:05.51
Oliver Burkeman
We.
44:05.59
Ben Owden
Anxiety falls away because now there's only one direction to travel forward into the consequences of your choices. Um, how this idea of closing a door and I think in the in the in the judeo-christian bible. There's a story of Elijah who's this guy living his life. Um, you know and you know god calls him and. He burns the plow he had you know animals I think cows and what not and he you know when he says yes he he burns the plow and this symbolic idea of closing a door shutting down an option like this is no longer available now. The only thing available is what I've said yes to um in the future and.
44:37.53
Oliver Burkeman
Um, yeah.
44:43.45
Ben Owden
I think in the in the book. There's this story. You tell of Warren Buffett you know and having a conversation I think with his pilot and you know the guy wanting life advice and and and so so I don't want to like spoil the story but I think maybe if you could just ah you know retell that story and.
44:51.30
Oliver Burkeman
Is it.
45:00.89
Ben Owden
The importance of you know, closing doors and the importance of being clear on things you should focus on and letting go of the things that you know it will be nice to do them in your life. But you know, maybe you know you just have to say goodbye and focus on you know these really extremely important. Um, goals or objectives that you have.
45:20.70
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah I mean there's 2 different things here. The Warren Buffett story which by the way as I say in the book probably wasn't actually Warren Buffett but it's become attributed to him so we have to sort of refer to it that way and this is about sort of the.
45:28.10
Ben Owden
Um, yeah, yeah.
45:35.19
Oliver Burkeman
Yeah, maybe I won't tell the whole story because it's involved but the point there is just that there are lots of things in life that are good things to spend your time on that you still have to decide not to spend your time on because there are a few even more important things to spend your time on right? So It's like this is a general point that it's not just about. Saying no to kind of tedious pointless stuff. It's about saying no to a lot of genuinely worthwhile stuff because there's just more stuff that matters than we have the bandwidth to do So This is a sort of the point here is like you know. You don't have to convince yourself that a given project is like stupid in order to let go of it. You just have to be like I can't do all the good projects right? So So I'm going to have to let some go not because I've concluded that they're worthless but just because I'm finite. And then yes that act is an act of sort of burning bridges and closing doors as you as you put it and what is so interesting. There is you know we're very scared to close doors. Generally, we put a lot of effort into trying to keep our options open and feel like we have um optionality.
46:46.76
Oliver Burkeman
As the Silicon Valley guys say these days. Um and yet. In fact, that can be a very tormenting way to live. It can be very sort of anxiety-inducing as you sort of keep cross- questioning whether yourself about whether you made the right decision. There's a very famous study that I mentioned in the book where two groups of people were given the choice of a.
46:49.47
Ben Owden
Are um.
47:06.34
Oliver Burkeman
A different piece of art to choose and keep and then one group of people were told ah whatever choice they made. It's final. Go home and the other group were told like you have a month or something to to trade it in for a different piece of art and the basic finding is that um the people who had a fine who'd made the final choice. Much more satisfied with what they had than the people who were thinking like oh maybe I should go back and swap it for another one and and so it's actually really freeing to to acknowledge ah to close a door and to acknowledge that. And the sort of deeper point here I guess is that we're all closing doors all the time anyway, right in reality. Um, every every however you spend each minister of the day in some existential sense like closes a thousand doors. Um.
47:45.86
Ben Owden
Are.
47:59.44
Oliver Burkeman
And so again, it's just this question of like Okay, if this is how things really are then how much more empowering It is to like go with that instead of fruitlessly spend your life fighting it and trying to keep your options open. It's the famous saying right? If if all you do is keep your options open then in the end all you're left with is options right? You don't.
48:02.13
Ben Owden
Are.
48:19.14
Oliver Burkeman
You don't There's no, there's no there there. There's no real project and to get your and your life and say well I kept my options open. That's not a very that that that wouldn't feel good as a way of of having spent your your life. Yeah, right right.
48:25.25
Ben Owden
Yeah.
48:32.58
Ben Owden
Yeah, not a way to live a meaningful life right? Yeah, ah so you know as we've come to the end of conversation. Um, now I would like to bring back the question right? The 1 one one what is the one book that you know.
48:44.70
Oliver Burkeman
Um, okay.
48:46.17
Ben Owden
Could be a recent book that you read that you know you wish you had read earlier in your life and what is the 1 habit that you've developed over the course of your life that you wish you developed earlier and then what is the 1 personal value that you know you will fight to keep.
49:02.96
Oliver Burkeman
Let's see ah I probably changed my answer throughout the book if you ask me like a month ago and next month but um I think I would say for now there's a book. Um that I'm a huge fan of called ah time surfing. By a writer called Paul Lumens and I'm sort of spreading the spreading the word about this at the moment because it's made such a big impact on me and it is a productivity book. But it's a productivity book that is very focused. He's ah influenced by zen buddhism. It's a productivity book that is all about going with your intuition. Not trying to achieve this kind of crazy degree of control over your time going with the flow ah letting your intuition lead you to the next thing to do. Ah, or how to deal with interruptions not by sort of trying to stamp them all out and then getting very stressed but actually giving your attention when your you know kid interrupts you in the middle of something give your attention and then when you're done move on to the next thing and it's just a very human way of navigating.
50:11.21
Oliver Burkeman
A life with with lots to do in it. So I find this a really sort of refreshing change and I think that that is a book that let's say ten years ago I could really have benefited from I think twenty years ago I just wouldn't have been in the right place for it to be honest, right? It's like sometimes you you meet books.
50:25.38
Ben Owden
Are.
50:30.73
Oliver Burkeman
Well I tend to think in a slightly Maybe this is like a superstitious belief. But I think you'd probably tend to meet books when you're ready for them. Ah so so I don't know how I would have responded but that's really ah, a liberating thing your your next question was um habit.
50:46.81
Ben Owden
Um, the one habit.
50:50.35
Oliver Burkeman
Ah, that I that I've cultivated and could have cultivated would would like to have cultivated sooner. Um.
51:02.81
Oliver Burkeman
Lots of ways of stating this and I think it's related to that book choice. But it's some I'm not someone who finds it I'm someone who's um, who sort of spent a lot of time. Ah a lot of life.
51:20.11
Oliver Burkeman
Feeling like there's lots of obligations on me that I've got to fulfill and that I'm kind of not a good person if I don't fulfill them and that there's this whole psychodrarama that people often bring to productivity and I've been in that as much as anybody and I think the habit that I have developed somewhat in the recent and recent years is that of asking myself.
51:28.10
Ben Owden
Are.
51:38.90
Oliver Burkeman
A little bit more the question. What I like to do with the next hour what would it what would it be what would it be enjoyable to do with today now. Obviously I still have obligations right? I sign contracts I make promises I have deadlines. It's not that I sort of. Just live a totally free life but actually meeting some of those obligations by taking seriously my own like intuition and instinct and what I'm feeling like I guess it's more I guess what it boils down to is not trying to squelch your emotions all the time but kind of give them a role.
52:15.98
Ben Owden
Ah.
52:16.69
Oliver Burkeman
To play. That's a habit that I think has helped me produce more and has almost certainly made me um, a less ah a less obnoxious person to interact with um in the world because when you're totally fixated on trying to make the world. Go how you've decided it has to go. Um.
52:27.33
Ben Owden
Um, and you.
52:36.65
Oliver Burkeman
Basically everyone else in the world is ah is a is defined as a problem which is which is no good. You can't um.
52:39.61
Ben Owden
Yeah I think that reminds me of that I know Bruce Lee is famous. You know for courting it. But I don't think he he's his his. He's his own initially said it like be like water right? that sense of you know while you're.
52:51.10
Oliver Burkeman
Yes.
52:56.92
Ben Owden
Solid in terms of you know, but then there's adaptability and this beautiful dance. Yeah.
52:59.83
Oliver Burkeman
Right? right? exactly and I think that's yeah, absolutely and water is such a great yes because it it moves around obstacles instead of trying to destroy them but it does move. It does move. It does get things done. It just get things done in ah in a way that cooperates. Yeah.
53:12.13
Ben Owden
Um, yeah, and then the um, one value the personal value. Yeah yes.
53:18.26
Oliver Burkeman
1 that I would never compromise is that is that was that the question. Um, ah I mean it this is tricky. It feels like there are probably ah several. Um, and I could go in like multiple different directions. But I guess the I guess the value that I really want one of the values that I really ah want to umbody is. I mean I guess it probably just goes by some terribly boring word like empathy and I don't I have lots of problems with that word. But I I don't want to lose the ability I don't want to ever lose the ability to understand that like everybody is fighting their own struggle and that if somebody is. Doing something that strikes me as problematic or obnoxious or they're being mean to me or something like that like these are always just the results of ah their own inner struggles and problems and trying to make the most meaningful life. They they can and I think it. It really keeps me sane to have that capacity I'm not saying I have a great degree of it. But it's very important to me whatever amount I do have to being able to sort of appreciate that. Yeah, we are just sort of all in the same boat trying to make sense of this situation of.
54:51.84
Oliver Burkeman
Being human. It's not that there's a whole bunch of people out there who are bad people trying to make life bad and everyone's just more or less competently trying to sort of get a handle on on being human. So I guess that is probably a version of.
55:10.24
Ben Owden
Um, yeah, thank you so much Oliver Burkeman for you know, a meaningful conversation I really enjoyed our conversation. So thank you so much for making the time um to to have this chat and to our dear listeners. Um, this has been the Why Lead podcast and I'm your host Ben Owden.
55:10.60
Oliver Burkeman
Empathy I Guess yeah.
55:23.33
Oliver Burkeman
Ah, thank you, Ben.