In this episode, dive deep into the profound insights shared by leadership expert Janet Harvey. Discover the transformative power of judgment and how it catalyzes personal and leadership growth. Janet highlights the importance of courage and curiosity, turning judgment from a stumbling block into a stepping stone. Get ready to redefine your relationship with judgment and unlock the doors to your truest self.
How to Connect with Janet Harvey
How to Connect with Ben Owden
In this episode, dive deep into the profound insights shared by leadership expert Janet Harvey. Discover the transformative power of judgment and how it catalyzes personal and leadership growth. Janet highlights the importance of courage and curiosity, turning judgment from a stumbling block into a stepping stone. Get ready to redefine your relationship with judgment and unlock the doors to your truest self.
How to Connect with Janet Harvey
How to Connect with Ben Owden
00:45.00
Ben Owden
Greetings to you I hope you are at peace and are having a meaningful and productive day welcome to another episode of the Why Lead podcast I'm your host Ben Owden. Now they say change is the only constant yet. Not. All of us have a healthy relationship with change if someone were to ask you. What's your relationship status with change? What would you say? will you say it's good? Will you say we're engaged or maybe I am married to change or is it complicated? Today's conversation we'll be exploring the idea of not just having a healthy relationship with change but actually inviting change into your life to have this conversation I am joined by a bestselling author of the award-winning leadership and coaching book Invite Change. She's the CEO of Invite Change. Ah, a coaching and human development organization that shapes a world where people love their life's work. She has trained and coached leaders at Fortune hundred five hundred companies across 6 continents for more than 25 years ladies and gentlemen Janet Harvey. Janet Karibu Sana! which is Swahili for you, you're most welcome. Oh great. So you start your book with this quote from Plato, “courage is knowing what not to fear” Courage is knowing what not to fear in your experience as a coach. What are some of the things that?
01:13.82
Janet M Harvey
Ah, Ahsante. Thank you.
01:30.77
Ben Owden
People fear that we probably shouldn't fear.
01:35.34
Janet M Harvey
Well, it's very connected to your opening comment and I think it's helpful for people to take it out of their heads a little bit and think about it in a more physically embodied way. Um, fear is part of our DNA.
01:44.87
Ben Owden
Yeah.
01:55.30
Janet M Harvey
And the oldest part of the brainstem. There is ah a neurological system called a reticular activating system. That's all designed to help us filter input from our experiences walking ah on the world and realizing what is or isn't a threat.
01:55.24
Ben Owden
Ah.
02:11.91
Ben Owden
Are.
02:13.61
Janet M Harvey
To our very survival So that's the that's the roots of fear and of course what is fear but our reaction to protect what we hold most dear what we love and every human being loves their existence right? So it's it's.
02:22.63
Ben Owden
Are.
02:30.38
Ben Owden
Um, a.
02:32.89
Janet M Harvey
Very deep in our bones and they think what Plato was talking about was realizing that we must always be calibrating how we define. What's a real threat one of the questions coaches often ask is it true right?
02:47.26
Ben Owden
Are.
02:49.90
Janet M Harvey
This thing client that you're describing is it true and that often creates a little bit of a rupture in 1 one's habitual way of thinking about things and the follow on question then is what's the evidence?
02:58.36
Ben Owden
Are.
03:04.10
Janet M Harvey
What are you examining that makes the case that this thing we're talking about is worthy of being afraid and what normally happens for people is they start to make it more practical more pragmatic more relevant in the context?
03:14.17
Ben Owden
Um.
03:23.24
Janet M Harvey
And we continue in the conversation. They start to realize wait a minute I have the capability I have the resourcefulness to meet this. Yes, it's a little scary but it doesn't have to paralyze me because I have access to more of myself than I originally thought.
03:27.66
Ben Owden
Are.
03:35.17
Ben Owden
Are. Are.
03:41.65
Janet M Harvey
Before we started this conversation so you know when something is left in this assumptive land of that's scary and therefore I'm going to be afraid of it and therefore I'm not going to act that happens in a split second.
03:55.90
Ben Owden
He.
03:59.13
Janet M Harvey
Because we're neurobiologically predisposed to protect ourselves and it isn't until we break that cycle a little bit and help people realize things on a second. Maybe that's not true, all right? Well, let's just play there for a minute What if it's not true?
04:01.65
Ben Owden
Are.
04:10.37
Ben Owden
Are.
04:16.70
Janet M Harvey
What evidence would you see that would confirm that for you and in that instant I have already started to invite change asked I bringing in to question the thing we've just assumed forever that we don't do well with change.
04:19.15
Ben Owden
Um, and.
04:23.40
Ben Owden
Yeah.
04:32.18
Ben Owden
That's ah what is true and do you have the evidence to support whether or not it's it's true. There's a study that I recently um, came across. It's called harnessing the power of the placebo effect. By Herbert Benson I think and Richard Friedman um and you know I talk about the power of the placebo effect. The fact that how once a human being believes something is real how it can affect your life. Um, in a good way and in a bad way.
05:03.63
Janet M Harvey
Yeah, if it get you.
05:07.83
Ben Owden
In that same sense right? So ah, someone who a lot of people who've transformed how we live as human beings innovators inventors. They were largely driven initially by a hunch. You know there was a hypothesis that maybe things are this way and they pursued that and you know.
05:19.70
Janet M Harvey
Very.
05:26.11
Ben Owden
There's a lot of failure behind that and then you know there are successes that we talk about to this day so perception is plays a big role in how we leave our life in how we lead and how we show up Sometimes it's we don't have evidence for what we think is True. Um. And sometimes we're proven right? and sometimes we happen to be wrong and in fact, at times we're catastrophically wrong and we have to live and suffer the consequences of of that. Um and somewhere in your book you say Perception is a myth that sustains ambition.
05:50.75
Janet M Harvey
Wait.
06:04.19
Ben Owden
And I couldn't agree with more with that sentence. So a lot of the people. The Steve Jobs of the world. They perceived that the world is going to be this way. You want one day and that perception you know, fueled that ambition. But then there are a lot of people who think the same way that the world is going to be 1 way. Ah, cryptocurrency is 1 thing, right? People thought it was going to be the way we transact and invested a lot and a lot of people have lost money. Um, nfts and so many other things but you say that there is sort of like ah a danger with.
06:21.59
Janet M Harvey
Um, he should effect this death.
06:39.19
Ben Owden
Purely going with perception because you might chase a destination that is not yours to pursue and when I came across this part of your book I started thinking about you know, just us as humans and how we are mimetic in our nature. We copy other people That's how we learn. That's how we.
06:50.41
Janet M Harvey
Me.
06:55.44
Ben Owden
Ah, develop some of our desires if not a lot of our desires and so sometimes it's very hard to separate is this what I intrinsically want is this something that I picked up along the way because of my surroundings and everybody around me. Um, this is how they show up. This is what they desire. This is what they want This is what they like. So So how do we make sure that our perception powers our true desires our true ambition versus um, pursuing and following something?
07:14.95
Janet M Harvey
Is.
07:29.84
Ben Owden
That is a result of our mimetic nature just adapting and picking up things along the way.
07:35.20
Janet M Harvey
Right? Very keen observation on your part and I think that um you know in some ways This is why coaching in its current form is constellatation as you and I have talked before humans have helped each other in a coaching-like way since we could grunt.
07:48.56
Ben Owden
A.
07:52.85
Janet M Harvey
Um, it's in our Dna as human beings to be connected. We we in fact, as animals on the planet. We have the longest gestation period of any other animal in any of the genus of species at least 14 years old usually closer to 18 to 20 years old before.
08:03.51
Ben Owden
Ah.
08:12.15
Janet M Harvey
We say somebody's arrived into maturity. So that means that there is a tremendous influence Um, from the day we're born to defining for ourselves. What is safe What capability can I exercise what responsibility can I accept?
08:29.54
Ben Owden
A.
08:31.43
Janet M Harvey
What authority do I have in order to choose how I'm going to relate to life and these are things we've been sorting out for many years in fact the latest neuroscience says we don't fully develop in our brain until 30 that's a long time to.
08:47.34
Ben Owden
It's a long time.
08:48.31
Janet M Harvey
To lay down habits and preferences and assumptions and biases and the the tricky bit about all of this is that it's operating underneath the waterline. It's unconscious, sometimes subconscious and yet it is the autopilot by which we get up every morning and make decisions to make choices.
08:58.40
Ben Owden
Are.
09:06.19
Janet M Harvey
But how we show up and how we interact so your question is really going to the very heart of consciousness what responsibility do we? Each have to listen first internally. What is my inner authority? What's what's the quality and. Set of traits that make me me and Ben Ben those are not things we ask people to think about we often. Um, notice that leaders turn to personal development about mid-career because they're realizing that.
09:27.65
Ben Owden
Um.
09:40.70
Janet M Harvey
All of the capability they build based on somebody else's expectations and all right? Well I've accomplished I've achieved I've arrived I'm not very happy I'm not sensing that I'm using all of my capability. Well this is because we think about things in this.
09:47.93
Ben Owden
Are.
10:00.22
Janet M Harvey
A very transactional way. What works right now. Okay I'll do that and I won't use these other capabilities I possess only those tend to be in modern life. The things that are more in the realm of creativity and beauty and intuition and sensory acuity.
10:08.43
Ben Owden
Um.
10:18.50
Janet M Harvey
Things that help us see patterns and rhythms appreciating the river stream and noticing in our own lives where we're in flow and where we're not this noticing what grabs our attention. This is one of the really important micro skills on the path to saying hang on a second. I'm going to disrupt my habit in this situation I would be likely to do this That's what I've always done in the past but I'm not that person anymore I I built that habit ten years ago or twenty years ago and I don't need that habit now I don't need the belief that sits underneath that habit now.
10:44.14
Ben Owden
And.
10:50.20
Ben Owden
Are.
10:54.97
Janet M Harvey
And I have a core value that's in conflict with this belief and I'm in a situation where a relationship that I'm not finding satisfying. It's up to me to change it but people don't stop to think what do I care about what's the inner Authority I have to choose.
11:09.93
Ben Owden
Um, me.
11:12.80
Janet M Harvey
And this is the development that the current constellation of coaching is addressing slowing things down a little bit I have I've said this for dozens of years pause gives more time than it takes and we have this tension right around time.
11:25.24
Ben Owden
Um, um, yeah, because you you know pausing. Um I think especially in the world of work is sometimes.
11:29.72
Janet M Harvey
And maybe we'll get into that in a sec.
11:38.60
Janet M Harvey
Here.
11:44.23
Ben Owden
Not seen like like literally your your your statement ah pausing gives you more time that sounds almost untrue How how does it it actually steals my time. How how how does it give more time right? and and there is something that you say right? this when stakes are the highest.
12:03.63
Ben Owden
Choose to slow down. But I think the reflex for for most of us is that when stakes are high. That's the time to speed up but that's the time to really get into the action because inactivity is almost seen as complacent and and so how do we reorient I Guess our anxiety. Such that it leads us to slow down um instead of wanting to take control and speeding up and just saying Okay, it's time for action. But how how do we change our orientation and saying Okay, um, let's slow down.
12:34.76
Janet M Harvey
Yes.
12:41.63
Ben Owden
Um, almost like being zen in in these situations and saying Okay, yeah.
12:43.22
Janet M Harvey
Not quite not quite it. It has his ze like quality in that somebody on the outside might see it as inaction and passive and it's anything but it's highly engaged highly active, but it's internal and.
12:51.69
Ben Owden
And.
13:00.87
Ben Owden
Um.
13:01.43
Janet M Harvey
There's a premise here when you think about so it's now twenty seven years ago the us army came up with vuka volatile uncertain complex and ambiguous. This is not a brand new idea. It was the idea that came out of what we began to see that modern war was door to door. It wasn't massive armies. It was cross-cultural. It was relational and that meant they needed to create opportunities to build relationship. We can't do that when we're busy doing when we're jogging up the hill and you're out of breath. You're not going to ask a person What do you care about? What's important to you.
13:29.87
Ben Owden
Are.
13:37.56
Ben Owden
Are.
13:38.40
Janet M Harvey
Right? These are is are at odds with each other and so what we began to recognize is that the more complex something gets the more ambiguous something gets the more important relationship is I cannot see what you can see.
13:46.18
Ben Owden
Are.
13:55.15
Ben Owden
Um.
13:55.48
Janet M Harvey
Cannot see the whole picture. It's too distributed and has too many layers to it and there's too much inference and interpretation going on for all of the stakeholders that are involved in a complex decision. A wise leader recognizes and we could take this back to all indigenous stripes. Everywhere on Planet Earth to sit in circle and listen to every voice that's an act of pause pause the need to make a decision until we've seen the whole story. Not just the one that I'm directly impacted by and that means we're also listening.
14:16.50
Ben Owden
Are.
14:33.38
Janet M Harvey
With respect and available to have somebody say something that's completely different from how I've seen it and entertain it fully entertain it as all of the pieces of the views of all the people in the circle Emerge We start to realize. Ah.
14:39.81
Ben Owden
Are.
14:51.86
Janet M Harvey
We're solving symptoms. We're not solving the root problem and this is where pause gives more time than it takes if I fix the symptom. It's going to recur. This is the you know the person who goes on ah on a starvation diet to lose weight and.
14:54.26
Ben Owden
Um.
15:01.35
Ben Owden
It.
15:11.22
Janet M Harvey
They get out. They lose the weight and they go back to the reason they were eating in the first place. It's so in their habit space. They don't even realize that unconsciously that's the autopilot and then they say oh I give up I'm I'm never going to be able to lose weight and truthly what they haven't done is pause. To step back to pull back for a little perspective and say huh. What am I serving in myself by overeating or not eating in a nutritious way. Whatever example, you want to give what is it contributing into my life to eat in that way. We tend to focus on what the cost is.
15:43.62
Ben Owden
Are.
15:49.28
Janet M Harvey
This is symptom work as opposed to root cause work if I can look at what it is that I'm I'm replacing in my own sense of wholeness and satisfaction with eating now I can make a different choice and I'll kick off a whole series of new choices.
16:03.86
Ben Owden
Um, in.
16:06.59
Janet M Harvey
Are much more about restoring my natural rhythm as opposed to the one that I compensated for some uncertainty some difficulty that I was facing at the time which could be many years earlier now that might sound a little bit like therapy and.
16:15.35
Ben Owden
Are.
16:25.25
Janet M Harvey
It's true that cognitive Behavioral Therapy works in this way. Coaches also have an opportunity to help a person who is aware I am aware a client says that I have habits that aren't serving me how do I break these darn habits because I'm ready I'm tired of being like this.
16:41.32
Ben Owden
Are.
16:43.53
Janet M Harvey
And that's an opening right? There's a readiness to now begin to learn to look inside and say from where within me does the choice arise to do this behavior to take this action that actually compromises my life quality.
16:58.10
Ben Owden
Are.
17:00.47
Janet M Harvey
And that is the beginning of the change process that's inviting change. We don't have to know the how we must start first with noticing what's getting my attention. What's motivating that attention and now what choice can I make given who I am in current time differently. For how I relate to my life.
17:20.44
Ben Owden
Um, um, well. Ah as you're explaining all of this. The example that you use right? that if we trace back in basically all communities. Practice of sitting around in a circle. Um, and you know the chif or the tribal leader. Whoever um, allowing people to contribute and you know as you're explaining it sounded like the leader.
17:33.51
Janet M Harvey
And.
17:52.30
Ben Owden
Whoever is leading that conversation needs to have almost like an elastic worldview where you where you you encourage you know diversity in thinking because people will say things that you disagree with or that you think are crazy but to have this.
17:58.69
Janet M Harvey
Ah.
18:03.99
Janet M Harvey
And.
18:11.20
Ben Owden
Worldview that accommodates even ideas that are outside of its own right? Um, and I think in your book you speak of it as unconditional curiosity. Um, how do you have unconditional curiosity and I think my question is what what sort of foundation. Do. We need to have. To make sure that unconditional curiosity doesn't lead to a life that isn't grounded because I think sometimes the fear with having unconditional curiosity is that what if I get lost what if I I pursue things and then I I get lost I. Now you hear of people who um are engaging in drugs like psychedelics um and mushrooms and when they come back to reality or maybe they say that we're not living in the reality but you know the idea is that.
18:53.16
Janet M Harvey
Right.
19:06.27
Ben Owden
The experience is this experience of unconditional curiosity is that suddenly all of these restraints that I put on myself in terms of what I explore are off limits and there are those who have you know come back with good testimonies and then there are those who just say ah I am not going back there? Um, so again. How do we build a foundation in and of ourselves such that we can have unconditional curiosity but still remain grounded as individuals.
19:34.47
Janet M Harvey
Yeah,, That's a beautiful question I think definition of terms is very helpful here and when I say unconditional curiosity I mean that we are asking to learn. Ah, question, we couldn't possibly know the answer to because it doesn't live inside of us. Whatever our foundational to use your term. Whatever our foundational identity is. However, we've constructed it to a moment in time that we're in it has a bunch of things in it. It has our. Epigenetics. It has our anthropology. It has our geography.. It has our our cultural and social norms. Our philosophy religious spiritual elements that are the influences. That's a worldview work and then there's values and thoughts and beliefs and habits and routine actions. Our attitude. Those are mindset. So worldview think Rearview Mirror Mindset front windshield one of the things that's very foundational is as I look out the front windshield can I go all the way to the horizon can I give myself permission to have connection to a purpose that is bigger.
20:44.00
Ben Owden
Um.
20:49.36
Janet M Harvey
Than my daily life am I available to exercise my values as the lens at which I make decisions. What are my core values. Do I Even know have I spent any time getting current with how I'm living my life right now which often are a reflection.
21:05.30
Ben Owden
Are.
21:07.19
Janet M Harvey
Of What our values are getting connected to the essence of Ourselves. What makes us uniquely us what those core values are our practices of staying aligned to a core purpose in our lives. These are all extremely important so that. When we're having an activity where we're in unconditional curiosity asking a question we couldn't possibly know the answer to we're doing it to learn about the other. It may be something Ultimately we decide we want to adopt but we never lose our sovereignty. Which is the responsibility for an inner Authority. What is that Inner Authority It is the essential trait. It is our core values. It is our principles. It is our sense of purpose. These are things that are developmental and a lot of modern life doesn't give us.
21:53.66
Ben Owden
Are.
21:58.86
Janet M Harvey
The opportunity to work with someone to have those things get current with our experience and again I think this is why coaching has exploded on the scene is that that's a conversation that people can relax into hearing themselves knowing that the coach is not going to tell them what to do.
21:59.21
Ben Owden
Are.
22:18.21
Janet M Harvey
Or tell them how to live their lives or evaluate the choices they're making but support them to discover that oh I am now remembermbering myself literally Ari Dash membering myself these are important foundational pieces and I think that.
22:26.64
Ben Owden
Are.
22:35.82
Janet M Harvey
The exploration that's happening right now with the psychedelics that particularly in working with mental Health is attempting to break through the Habit space the conditioning from an outside source rather than a connection to an internal source.
22:40.50
Ben Owden
Are.
22:52.63
Janet M Harvey
And in my book I think we're still experimenting and I think it's wise to make choices about who 1 works with and engages for that purpose.
22:53.24
Ben Owden
Are.
23:02.61
Ben Owden
Wow Um, you know this internal internal approach as somewhere else you say something that I you know I thought it was was just a good line. Um, you say becoming masterful. In life is an inside job for every human being. Um, you must choose to surrender your perspective and worldview as the most important elements to nurture and I think surrender as ah as a word has ah you know.
23:35.00
Janet M Harvey
Yes, it does.
23:35.31
Ben Owden
It has bad rap because I think when people think of surrender. It's what it's like I am giving up I am giving away. Um and there is a sense of loss. Um, so how do we.
23:51.61
Ben Owden
When when you say you know you must choose to surrender your perspective and worldview as the most important elements does this mean we're losing and what do we gain when we surrender our perspective and worldview especially considering that perspective is such a personal. That's.
24:01.88
Janet M Harvey
This is everything.
24:08.23
Janet M Harvey
Yes.
24:09.98
Ben Owden
It's yours you've developed this over time. It's it's probably 1 of the few things that are truly yours and then you're supposed to surrender this. So why is that's an action we should pursue what makes it good. Yeah.
24:21.61
Janet M Harvey
I Appreciate the the balanced way you're framing this right? So there's if there if there's something that I'm losing might there also be something I'm gaining and of course the answer is yes our bodies resolve Duality a long time ago. The body knows unity.
24:30.28
Ben Owden
Are.
24:36.81
Ben Owden
Are.
24:41.70
Janet M Harvey
It's our brain with its two hemispheres and the synapses going back and forth that live in the right wrong? Yes, no black white um compare contrast kind of orientation when we drop into the breath and we allow ourselves to.
24:54.17
Ben Owden
Ah.
24:59.61
Janet M Harvey
Feel with some sensory acuity. The experience that we're having and the language of experience as a predicate to emotional intelligence by the way if you want to go down that road. We've lost the art of being able to express to another human being what we're experiencing is.
25:14.75
Ben Owden
Are.
25:17.33
Janet M Harvey
Thousands of methodologies to help couples learn how to fight fair and say that hurt please forgive me what can I learn from you about you So I don't do that again right? This is the Dei conversation as well and I think that um, well.
25:19.77
Ben Owden
Earth.
25:28.29
Ben Owden
Are.
25:35.85
Janet M Harvey
I Want to I want to see if I can contain the question a little bit to me we work diligently as human beings to be our best selves which means we are Acquiring. Acquiring skills. We're acquiring experience. Hopefully we're acquiring a little bit of wisdom when we make mistakes go oh that wasn't really what I wanted to do I see now what would have been a better choice right? and we become reflective learners about our lives in what we realize in that process is.
25:54.88
Ben Owden
A.
26:06.33
Janet M Harvey
I'm choosing to let go of an earlier belief that kept me safe that put me on a good path in my life to build capability. But it's outlived its purpose I don't need to be led by that belief anymore I'm going to update it and in that moment. I am surrendering my identity as a fixed identity as opposed to all of that experience is retained right? Nothing is lost. It is always going to be defined as part of who you are what you're surrendering is the autopilot. Behaving Only from what's been in your rearview mirror and what we gain is agility particularly if we're doing it in a values-based way a values aligned um orientation to say what serves here? What serves. Me bringing my best self what serves the other person that I am with how does it serve the larger Collective. You know this is a social mindset for leaders to adopt to to recognize they have the opportunity and privilege to make a big ripple effect in the World. We spend our waking hours in our employment and we.
27:11.24
Ben Owden
Um, a.
27:16.71
Ben Owden
He.
27:22.19
Janet M Harvey
Um, add to the other with our family and our community and maybe our our spiritual community. So the surrendering is to the fixed way that we've defined who we are which shuts us off from accessing all of who we will become. This is what we gain the access to that remembering.
27:38.13
Ben Owden
Um.
27:42.40
Janet M Harvey
Integrator and ever Artesian wholeness That's the beauty of the human condition.
27:49.22
Ben Owden
Um, you know and ah I like what you said there I think you started by you know, speaking about this how we have moved past to this binary way right? Um, and I think an idea that you. Champion is this idea of wholeness as something that needs to be embraced by individuals by entities and in the last maybe 2 decades probably um and I think so especially in in the last ten years I would say um.
28:03.93
Janet M Harvey
He.
28:22.30
Ben Owden
The corporate world has embraced the idea of emotional intelligence and I think ah these days it's It's become like a bragging right of sorts we organizations you know, just say yeah you know we we do eq at our organization as ah as a way to draw in.
28:26.91
Janet M Harvey
Right.
28:38.54
Janet M Harvey
Notice the word do we do Eq like wait a minute but.
28:40.60
Ben Owden
Ah, people. Yeah, but but you actually say which is you know I'm really curious to hear what you what your thoughts are you say emotional intelligence is not enough. It's not sufficient. Um, we need to embrace Wholeness. So What makes wholeness a more sufficient idea and and how does this look like for the individual and for the organization.
29:11.95
Janet M Harvey
Yeah I hinted at it a little bit with the introduction of the word experience. Um, what I notice is that emotional intelligence unfortunately yet pegged as an assessment focused on a weakness.
29:17.33
Ben Owden
Um, yeah.
29:31.44
Janet M Harvey
Identified as a gap in capability and so the predicate for a person is you're not good enough in your emotional intelligence. So the going in position is you need to get better at your emotional intelligence or you won't get the opportunity.
29:39.50
Ben Owden
A.
29:45.52
Ben Owden
Are.
29:48.40
Janet M Harvey
You know anybody that's listening. That's a parent knows that doesn't work The fact that there's a gap We want to say what's the foundation from which we are building what part of recognizing your emotions. Do you have access to.
29:53.90
Ben Owden
Um, a.
29:57.28
Ben Owden
E.
30:03.20
Ben Owden
Are.
30:05.40
Janet M Harvey
Where do you apply that and have success with it all right? What we're going to do is add to that and we start the muscle building process now. How do we do that we do that by having people identify. What are you experiencing so it's very common for coaches. A leader will show up in a session and say oh my god I just came out of a 2 hour meeting with my direct reports and I'm about to spit nails what is wrong with these people that they cannot get on board with the strategy we're trying to pursue. Oh.
30:31.29
Ben Owden
E.
30:40.74
Janet M Harvey
We just heard a whole bunch of emotional intelligence there. But it's incomplete isn't it. They have emotion about the situation. It's all based on their perspective.
30:47.51
Ben Owden
Are ah.
30:53.48
Janet M Harvey
There isn't anything there other than recognizing that they're resistance right? They have the emotional intelligence to recognize the resistance. But I'm going to ask a set of questions to reveal the additional emotion that was in the room that he or she missed.
30:59.00
Ben Owden
A.
31:05.83
Ben Owden
He.
31:10.44
Janet M Harvey
Not by naming for them other emotions or asking you know was this emotion present was that emotion present I'm going to ask them to describe what was introduced into the conversation now scan the room and describe for me how you saw what was introduced land.
31:26.38
Ben Owden
E.
31:28.71
Janet M Harvey
What were you paying attention to well body language all right. That's a little generic Specifically What did you witness and what meaning did you make of it. What's your evidence that that's true. We've come full circle haven't we and.
31:42.46
Ben Owden
Um, a.
31:45.17
Janet M Harvey
As the leader starts to articulate the experience they were taking in right? This is the reticular activating system the minute they felt resistance. They are filtering everything everyone says through that land is it resistance or not resistance is this person on board or not on board. And they're predisposed to hearing the things are not on board and I can guarantee you looking at transcripts that that leader will go I Never heard that I never heard that person say that it was completely blind to me so we call that Poor E q.
32:11.68
Ben Owden
Are.
32:20.88
Janet M Harvey
And it's actually not poor Eq It's my attention is predisposed to hear the thing that affirms what I believe all right can Eq help absolutely and the minute that limiting belief shows up and that the habit space is to.
32:29.47
Ben Owden
E.
32:39.52
Janet M Harvey
Look for what's not working as opposed to what is working to be able to hear something. That's a little disruptive or disturbing for them now they start to realize oh yeah, that was uncomfortable but there's a kernel of truth in it now I'm starting to get a little of acceptance. Living side by side with resistance. So it's through the language of experience and pausing to reflect and to articulate what actually was the full picture of what was happening I have this leader I Just love the way she says this.
32:58.57
Ben Owden
Um, he.
33:10.45
Ben Owden
Are.
33:16.34
Janet M Harvey
She puts an apple on a string she builds this picture this metaphoric picture for her team and she says my side of the Apple looks like this. It's eaten halfway and it's clearly been hanging on that string for several weeks and um, but it's not falling off the string and I don't quite understand that.
33:25.46
Ben Owden
E.
33:35.96
Janet M Harvey
How do you all see the Apple on the other side and they say it hasn't been eaten yet at all. It's you know, red and glowing and the skin looks great. How could those 2 things coexist that metaphor helps them then to see oh. We all have different perspectives now if we talk about the whole Apple we can see we're halfway into the project and something has stalled it. There's more resource needed where it's there. We're not accessing it the the juicy red side of the Apple.
34:08.56
Ben Owden
Um, a.
34:09.81
Janet M Harvey
What's in the way of accessing the resource because that's the reason you're not on grain plan. Nobody got made wrong for that right? you use the language of experience to help full make a full picture come into everybody's view.
34:13.50
Ben Owden
Are a a.
34:26.47
Janet M Harvey
Collecting all of the viewpoints they won't make bad decisions as a result which is why when we don't pause. It takes more time because we have to we implement something that we have to undo and take another path and if we keep doing it out of our habit. We're going to keep overworking reworking.
34:44.15
Ben Owden
Are a.
34:45.98
Janet M Harvey
And creating a ah really destructive leadership process pause is the way we engage inclusively. We challenge our assumptions and it enables people to say oh my gosh. Yeah, you know there's this whole other thing that we discounted.
34:48.85
Ben Owden
A.
35:03.63
Ben Owden
Are.
35:05.69
Janet M Harvey
A couple of weeks ago let's not do that. We want to bring that in now in that pause moment to reflect and discuss they realize there's far more resource than they imagined in the urge to try to just get it across the finish line and off their desk which if you'll.
35:12.51
Ben Owden
Are.
35:19.69
Ben Owden
A.
35:24.50
Janet M Harvey
Forgive me to go just a little bit further back pulling back on perspective. What does that say about their planning Criteria How are they forecasting and establishing the productivity metrics of that initiative somewhere somebody dropped the ball. There's a gap there and they can figure that out.
35:29.62
Ben Owden
E.
35:43.12
Janet M Harvey
Every project that comes after it will be far better informed and have greater ease and harmony.
35:50.89
Ben Owden
Um, you know, pausing and reflecting. Um, how how can we discern the difference between critique-based reflection where you're reflecting to criticize versus.
36:06.29
Ben Owden
Learning-based reflection where you're reflecting so you can learn. Um, so that you know reflection this pausing and reflecting becomes a productive tool rather than a destructive one because I think people who spiral they are very good at pausing and reflecting.
36:09.40
Janet M Harvey
Yeah.
36:25.16
Ben Owden
It's just that they're going in the opposite direction. So so how do we make sure that ah the reflection is you know, directed towards learning versus criticizing.
36:34.66
Janet M Harvey
Yeah, well one is to set that intention for sure it It is certainly very easy for people to fall into personal attack but ask yourself why.
36:45.55
Ben Owden
Um, yeah.
36:47.79
Janet M Harvey
Why does personal attack come up as the first inference that somebody makes when they receive information. It's not about the person delivering the information although they certainly can inflame and amplify it by their tone and their word choice and the energy when they deliver feedback. It can feel like a you know and.
36:52.38
Ben Owden
E.
37:07.36
Janet M Harvey
Ah, spear to the chest. Absolutely that person could have a little more emotional intelligence to recognize that the conversation we're having is about a breakdown which means it is tough tight or tender so has some sensitivity right? That's the emotional intelligence piece.
37:19.68
Ben Owden
Um, and you.
37:23.67
Janet M Harvey
But the fact that it lands as a personal attack is about the person who's on the receiving side of it. How is that person accepting more responsibility than is theirs who put them in charge of the breakdown. What are they absorbing as if it is the whole truth.
37:27.10
Ben Owden
He.
37:34.15
Ben Owden
Are.
37:43.20
Janet M Harvey
And not asking the question huh that was not my experience I hear how you're describing the experience and I wonder what sense did you make of this this and this so the 2 players in the conversation or the group in the conversation. Keeping their focus on the shared purpose. They've come together to deliver. It's not personal people made personal decisions about what they chose to contribute but that's in the past. So now the question is what is available for them to think about differently.
38:02.49
Ben Owden
Are yeah.
38:20.64
Janet M Harvey
If they stay connected to the shared purpose that resolves itself.
38:26.40
Ben Owden
Um, something else that you say as well that I think when I came across this thought his one I said. Okay, ah you know there is some alignment in how we think. Um, your views and take on judgment because we we live in a world ah that at least you know mainstream thinking is anti-judgment the idea of diversity and acceptance you know it's It's the opposite of judgment I think ah.
38:43.26
Janet M Harvey
And.
39:01.15
Ben Owden
Don't judge me people have tattoos written you know, please don't judge me only God can judge me etc. So So judgment again is another word that ah is not liked by a lot of people and I think there is some merit to that because you know judgment. Has crippled a lot of people and I think some of the anxiety that weighs a lot of people is the result of judgment they received at a different point in their life. Um, and you know it could be self-declared judgment or could be judgments from other people. But but you say judgment is not the enemy.
39:19.24
Janet M Harvey
Yeah.
39:37.60
Ben Owden
Ah, judgment asks us to asks us to step into our own courage and curiosity. So what sort of identity. Do we need to formulate to make sure that judgment doesn't cripple us but actually it becomes a tool for empowerment. How how do we formulate who we are in such that.
39:56.96
Ben Owden
We don't flee from judgment. Um, we don't see it as something negative, but we find ways to channel that towards empowerment.
40:07.40
Janet M Harvey
It's a very big question and I think that ah ah I'm I'm hesitating about how to unpack it the most simply.
40:18.58
Ben Owden
And.
40:21.41
Janet M Harvey
Um, make a distinction between judgment and being judgmental and being judgmental is what activates reaction to our experience somebody says something that we feel.
40:36.89
Ben Owden
Um.
40:39.63
Janet M Harvey
Uncomfortable about we feel emotion about we? Um, maybe get our fear response activated back there in the back of our brain cortisol gets released and we want to lash out so this is the common. Um, flight freeze fight I Also like fracture when we get so confused and overwhelmed by what's coming at us and the way we're allowing it to penetrate our own consciousness in that moment.
41:04.58
Ben Owden
Are.
41:16.32
Janet M Harvey
Fracture our ability to respond What is the reason that somebody's expression to us evokes that that's inside of us and until we are able to recognize that.
41:25.69
Ben Owden
A.
41:35.25
Janet M Harvey
This was judgmental What was expressed. It's not about me. It is about the other person and then have compassion to understand this thing between us has created passion can I be with this passion without taking it on as my eye identity.
41:35.50
Ben Owden
Are.
41:49.70
Ben Owden
Um, you.
41:52.80
Ben Owden
Are.
41:54.71
Janet M Harvey
Because it is not at least not completely in that Moment. We are now exercising judgment we're recognizing we are Discerning. We're exercising critical thinking. We're allowing ourselves a little bit of breath and that's really all it takes a turn of the neck and a breath. Can resettle the parasympathetic system Now we can recognize Wow this person is expressing something that's disproportionate to the situation. We're talking about I got this isn't being aimed at me, let me get still.
42:14.47
Ben Owden
Are.
42:23.42
Ben Owden
Are a.
42:30.60
Janet M Harvey
And when they pause for a moment. Ask what's happening for you because what you just described has nothing to do with me what's going on here now. We're not acculturated that way to your point we talk about being non-judgmental. We talk about suspending judgment.
42:36.67
Ben Owden
Are.
42:49.60
Janet M Harvey
And we end up conflating judgment and being judgmental if we pull them apart now we have an opportunity to recognize let's take. Ah, let's take a Dei um situation. You know the the leadership team's been brought together for a training class.
42:53.57
Ben Owden
Um, and.
43:04.44
Ben Owden
Are.
43:06.53
Janet M Harvey
And the instructor is asking them to look at some things that are a little tough tight or tender and the room just starts erupting. You know people have opinions. What is that that's being judgmental and a really good instructor in a Dei class will say imagine what it feels like to be on the other side. Of the way you just described your experience and the room gets quiet. What would you want someone to know about your judgments around blah Blah Blah Whatever the situation is. And the room gets quiet again. Most will say I don't even want to talk about it. This is this ridiculous subject right? We have a diverse Workforce. We're Inclusive. What's the big deal. Why are we working on this and it is the continuing conversation to discern the privilege and the oppression.
43:54.59
Ben Owden
Are.
44:03.75
Janet M Harvey
And the exclusion that happens in the habit space that they have no conscious noticing of unless somebody calls it forward and describes the experience that they're having not in a judgmental way but in the facts of actually what's occurring.
44:19.73
Ben Owden
Are a.
44:21.75
Janet M Harvey
This is the exercise of judgment and if we don't do this. We will continue to polarize. There's this wonderful program that's happening in the United States um is called braver angels and there the facilitators are bring change to bring a republican conservative a liberal.
44:26.50
Ben Owden
Are.
44:41.40
Janet M Harvey
Democrat into the same room and they learn to have a conversation to exchange their histories and they're the underpitting experiences in their lives that have led them to hold the perspective that they hold because through that dialogue where they can discern the origins and the.
44:45.74
Ben Owden
Are.
44:53.70
Ben Owden
Are. I.
45:00.94
Janet M Harvey
Experiences and realize we have more in common than we have different but it starts from our I acknowledge I feel judgmental about the other's point of view and I'm going to stay here Anyway, that's discernment.
45:02.70
Ben Owden
Are.
45:14.93
Ben Owden
And and how do we? How do we have such conversations because something else that you say is every conversation that builds unity is a source of breakthrough. So so how do we have those types of conversations.
45:31.54
Janet M Harvey
That's the emotional courage you were referencing a little bit earlier. We must choose to value all right? Well this is I'm previewing something you're going to ask me about later but but in my mind um. I get asked the question a lot.. What's my superpower and I always say Perseverance Perseverance is my superpyre power and it's nonnegotiable in my quest to change the nation and the world Dignity. It is a human birthright.
45:50.20
Ben Owden
A.
45:55.26
Ben Owden
Are.
46:05.95
Janet M Harvey
We come into a human body to fulfill the human family and that means this work is for all of us dignity isn't something you grant to someone respect is earned. Everybody has a right to dignity everybody no matter what their eco socioconomic or cultural orientation.
46:10.52
Ben Owden
Are.
46:25.74
Janet M Harvey
Or age or other identity factors. Everybody has a right to dignity respect is earned in our relationships and trust is given when we give Trust we get trust when we give respect. It is returned.
46:28.61
Ben Owden
A.
46:35.75
Ben Owden
Um.
46:37.78
Ben Owden
Are.
46:44.68
Janet M Harvey
That's the reciprocal nature of life when we're not feeling those things not feeling respect and not feeling. Trust we have to go back to the roots. Do we believe in the dignity that is a human birthright or not so it's emotional courage as a leader. To recognize that when that positional conversation arises and there's a lot of emotionality to calm the system down to pause to allow for the space for people to say out, please forgive me. What must I learn about you so I never do that to you again and I the ubuntu spirit that's alive on your continent in Africa is a wonderful place to begin that conversation.
47:21.49
Ben Owden
Are.
47:32.18
Ben Owden
Um, and and speaking of of because I think when you were talking about emotional intelligence and how it's it focuses on improving areas of weakness. Um, and there's a question that I think you referenced your colleague in in the book you know and that think she brought it to you and but I thought it was a very interesting question. Um are you watering the weeds.
48:04.49
Janet M Harvey
See.
48:06.52
Ben Owden
What makes this an important question to ask.
48:11.51
Janet M Harvey
Orientation if my frame of reference which is mindset right now if I walk around in the world looking for all the things that are broken. That's all I think about is that things are broken. You can see this and. Public relations and in the media and in advertising we prey on people's sense of fear and scarcity and lack. Oh my god Thirteen point eight billion years ago stardust created planet earth it is abundant. It's up to us to decide to see it. And that doesn't mean that the exchange of energy that's happening in the diversity of what it is to live on this planet doesn't create moments when we're uncomfortable and unhappy absolutely but that that's that's not a permanent condition. There was a condition before that there'll be a condition after that.
49:04.40
Ben Owden
Ah.
49:05.95
Janet M Harvey
All driven by the choices. Each person makes if my mindset says there is enough for everyone. Everyone is worthy every everyone has dignity I now am paying attention out there completely differently I'm looking for evidence to support my belief in the abundance Of. It is to live on Planet Earth in this Galaxy I Realize that's a kind of a big conceptat but at the end of the day we started here talking about Beliefs. That's exactly what this is about what do I believe about being a human being and what my purpose is and being here when we believe in.
49:29.12
Ben Owden
Ah.
49:44.30
Janet M Harvey
Possibility believe in the openness to grow. There is always opportunity.
49:53.23
Ben Owden
Um, So so it's more of ah, having a possibility mindset or a positive mindset compared to because I think I thought it was a very funny question. Um, you know are you watering the weeds and. To think the image is it's It's funny in the most absurd ways meaning that if you see somebody doing this. You would you would question their intelligence. What what are you doing. But I think if you reflect it back to our lives. It's probably what we do.
50:27.11
Janet M Harvey
This is gossip right? This is complaining This is being judgmental and this is lying in those small little ways that we do no it really was yellow. It wasn't red when I sped through the intersection.
50:28.12
Ben Owden
Quite a lot.
50:41.14
Ben Owden
Are.
50:43.98
Janet M Harvey
Um I was just 3 minutes late I'm really not late. These are small little lies that pull at the fabric of our own sense of integrity. So gossip complaining lying judgmental these are always in which we.
50:54.63
Ben Owden
Um.
51:02.57
Janet M Harvey
Water The weeds.
51:04.34
Ben Owden
Um, Wow Um, now as we're coming to. You know the the end of our conversation. Ah, there is a question that we ask all of our guests.
51:11.30
Janet M Harvey
Be his.
51:17.75
Ben Owden
Called the one one one I think you just gave us a bit of a preview. Um, but um, what what is the 1 book that you know you read that you wish maybe you had read it earlier. What's the 1 habit that you've developed.
51:21.76
Janet M Harvey
Um I put in your voice. So sorry.
51:34.28
Ben Owden
Um, along the way along the journey of your life that you maybe wish you know you would have developed that earlier as well and then what is the 1 personal value that you will not compromise no matter the cost.
51:46.12
Janet M Harvey
Yeah, well I'll work backwards so dignity is that personal value and it's ah, really got another close second which is generosity I believe in the principle of reciprocal prosperity that you know as I as I stand.
51:50.66
Ben Owden
Ah, a.
51:56.31
Ben Owden
Um, and.
52:01.14
Janet M Harvey
As a champion and a storyteller for dignity I am putting into the world. The possibility that that is what our lived experience is and I um when I first started as a young adult I really thought I was going to be a diplomat and life circumstances interrupt it.
52:09.14
Ben Owden
Um.
52:19.40
Ben Owden
Are.
52:21.14
Janet M Harvey
There just wasn't I ended up having to quit school and do some other things and I ultimately made my mate back into economics and really loved that field of study I never got back to the international relations that had been my first joy and I um. When I left my corporate life and started my entrepreneurial life. Um, as a coach and an organizational effectiveness consultant I started back studying international relations and and I knew that dignity was something that I learned very young because of the birthmark on my face. It's really easy for people to dismiss me and I um and I didn't believe in that right? So emotional courage was something I needed to learn as I said perseverance was a superpower so anyway Eleanor Roosevelt is one of my heroes and this particular book is called.
52:58.90
Ben Owden
Are.
53:15.98
Janet M Harvey
A worldm made new and it is the story of um, her appointment to the universal human rights committee of the un it took them right after world war two. They started their work in um, the fall of 45 it took until 49 before they actually had a document.
53:18.10
Ben Owden
Ah.
53:35.76
Janet M Harvey
That they can begin to circulate around countries. We do not have universal adoption of this doesn't make any sense to me doesn't it just doesn't make any sense to me and there are so many things that I have learned.
53:40.25
Ben Owden
Are.
53:50.72
Janet M Harvey
From her description of the experience she had in negotiating with different leaders and listening deeply to the reasons why somebody would say no we can't say that we need to say this and and I'll talk about an example of vocco. Oh my goodness. So she's been a.
54:03.59
Ben Owden
In a.
54:08.12
Janet M Harvey
She's been a very important inspiration for me in my own Quest and I Also think that that's my habit that so much of my younger life like probably all the way to 40 was about producing results because I stayed safe that way if I got straight a's. If I did the job better than anybody else if I got the next promotion if I got the next opportunity I was going to be okay and one day I was standing on the deck at my house looking out at my backyard and the flowers and I thought to myself This cannot be all. There is.
54:32.78
Ben Owden
Yeah.
54:45.22
Janet M Harvey
I am done doing for everybody else and that's when I became an entrepreneur and my work has been fully dedicated to people stepping into their wholeness and living a sovereign life.
54:45.51
Ben Owden
Um.
54:54.35
Ben Owden
Well so that's the habit. Thank you, Thank you for sharing that? um and I think you know to our to our listeners will share all of the different ways that they can get in touch I think you know.
54:58.54
Janet M Harvey
Yes.
55:09.90
Janet M Harvey
Great.
55:12.74
Ben Owden
For executives who are looking for coaching for leaders who want to develop this skill to become a coach because I think we live in a world now where part of the responsibility that a leader has is to coach the people who report to them so you know so we'll put all that information. So that people can get in touch with you. But once again, thank you so much for.
55:22.76
Janet M Harvey
Yes.
55:32.65
Ben Owden
Making the time to have this meaningful and very important conversation I don't know if you have any last words for our audience.
55:42.55
Janet M Harvey
I want to give a little sneak peek. There is ah a second book coming out on January Ninth which is called from tension to transformation a leader's guide to generative change and.
55:43.73
Ben Owden
Um, yes.
55:51.87
Ben Owden
Um, and.
55:54.62
Janet M Harvey
This is really I I just feel so grateful and blessed the thousands of leaders that I've worked with over the years I'm unlocking the key to how to be with or any problems in a way that is um, optimizing all of the human. Ah.
56:01.26
Ben Owden
Are.
56:10.82
Janet M Harvey
Instinct and intuition and innovation and innate creativity of their workforce. It comes in the pause that gives more time than it takes.
56:20.47
Ben Owden
Um, thank you so much. Thank you for that and I think yeah again, but I think by the time we really we released the episode I'm sure you would have you know links for the new book as well. So we'll add that as well. Yeah.
56:29.50
Janet M Harvey
Oh terrific. That's great news. Thank you so much Ben it's a joy a beautiful conversation I can't wait to hear it again.
56:34.16
Ben Owden
Ah.
56:36.64
Ben Owden
Yeah I mean to and and to our dear listener. Thank you for listening This has been the Why Lead podcast I'm your host Ben Owden.