Join the conversation as Matthias Sutter, renowned economist and author, reveals the surprising intricacies of leadership and human behavior. Unraveling the mysteries behind successful teams, he delves into the power of charisma, the impact of imitating others, and the vital role of a leader's social image. From the surprising habits of Mozart to the critical distinction between managers and leaders, Matthias shares insights that challenge conventional thinking on work ethics, corporate culture, and decision-making. If you're a leader navigating growth or aspiring to the top, this episode exposes the hidden dynamics that can reshape your approach to leadership and propel your team to new heights.
Matthias's book: https://www.amazon.com/Behavioral-Economics-Leaders-Research-Based-Irrational/dp/1119982979
Matthias's Website: https://www.coll.mpg.de/matthias-sutter.html
Matthias's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthias-sutter-6b6a83230/?originalSubdomain=at
Matthias's Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattsutter_mpi?lang=en
Join the conversation as Matthias Sutter, renowned economist and author, reveals the surprising intricacies of leadership and human behavior. Unraveling the mysteries behind successful teams, he delves into the power of charisma, the impact of imitating others, and the vital role of a leader's social image. From the surprising habits of Mozart to the critical distinction between managers and leaders, Matthias shares insights that challenge conventional thinking on work ethics, corporate culture, and decision-making. If you're a leader navigating growth or aspiring to the top, this episode exposes the hidden dynamics that can reshape your approach to leadership and propel your team to new heights.
Matthias's book: https://www.amazon.com/Behavioral-Economics-Leaders-Research-Based-Irrational/dp/1119982979
Matthias's Website: https://www.coll.mpg.de/matthias-sutter.html
Matthias's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthias-sutter-6b6a83230/?originalSubdomain=at
Matthias's Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattsutter_mpi?lang=en
00:34.72
Ben Owden
Why do taller people get a higher salary? Why do women request salary raises less frequently than men? Does enough money lure us to ignore all our moral concerns? and more importantly, why do smart people behave strangely and so to have this conversation? I am joined by the director of the Marx Planck Institute of Research on collective goods. He heads the experimental economics group. He is one of the most productive economists in the German-speaking region and he does research on the development of economic preferences and children and young people. The advantages of team decisions and behavioral economics. Aspects of professional life ladies and gentlemen Matthias Sutter, Matthias welcome.
02:53.97
Matthias Sutter
Thanks a lot Ben for the nice introduction.
02:58.98
Ben Owden
Um, I think the opening pages of the first chapter of your book I mean the opening lines quite interesting, especially this line or question rather why do smart people behave strangely so my question is.
03:14.28
Ben Owden
What's the story behind you actually getting to a point where you ask yourself this question? Why do smart people behave strangely?
03:21.96
Matthias Sutter
Ah, well, it's an everyday experience I must say ah so you see so many people acting in sometimes weird ways. Sometimes you don't notice immediately. Why they're doing this or that be it in in meetings which is often in professional life. Super frustrating because people have hidden our agendas for instance also making plans many people don't follow up on those plans and kind of this is all why? Ah I as a behavioral economist I am interested in human behavior because it's it's so rich. It's often contradictory.
03:52.14
Ben Owden
And.
03:55.17
Matthias Sutter
Ah, but it's always fascinating to understand what motivates people in their choices.
03:58.57
Ben Owden
You also speak about this idea of challenging your own expectations meaning that almost like when you go into some of these projects you you surprise yourself, you know and sometimes challenging your own prejudice and by looking at the empirical data you know in your own words and revising your position where. Necessary to do so and you know this is a very interesting approach because we live in a world that's becoming increasingly complex things are changing very quickly and many of us are forced to unlearn very quickly. You know one thing was useful now and then two years down the road There's a new body of research. There's new findings and you have to change and adapt but unlearning is not.
04:37.52
Matthias Sutter
No.
04:37.67
Ben Owden
Easy for most people. Um, so what makes it easy or hard really to unlearn some of your own expectation. You know presuppositions and other things.
04:48.53
Matthias Sutter
Well, let let me give you an example so I was for a long time. Very very skeptical about the effects of ah affirmative action. Policies kind of for instance giving women a head start and promoting their career kind of and pushing them in competition to perform better and and I always thought this this is just. Not working properly and then I thought okay I'm an experimental economist I could run studies on this I could find out how women and men react to those ah situations and I found out that the data speak a different language than I was thinking about and so I'm a firm believer that whenever. I Believe something is the case and if I don't have hard enough evidence try to collect some evidence then let the data speak So This is ah this is basically how I personally try to unlearn as you are calling it by by simply looking at at say robust convincing large enough sample sizes. In order to find out whether that's actually what I thought it would be.
05:47.49
Ben Owden
Um I like that and actually interestingly enough that you just brought up this aspect of equality in the workplace because that's a conversation that's um, happening everywhere in the world. Um diversity inclusion creating spaces for women and. The conversation in large part has been a debate between. Are we aiming for equality of outcomes meaning that you know we have 3 men. We have 3 women or are we just aiming for equality of opportunities meaning that everyone is given equal opportunity and then may the best person get the opportunity. But actually in one of your studies you found that even when people are given equal opportunity in terms of you know if it's for a job interview. Okay, let's have 5 candidates who are women 5 candidates who are men the buyer still makes its way into the room. So while it. Might appear as equal opportunity and the best person won but our own human bias towards women. Um and sometimes it could be coming from both men and women still comes so so having access to such information I mean.
06:51.36
Matthias Sutter
That.
07:00.28
Ben Owden
How should that influence how we approach this whole conversation around equality. What's the right? Um, approach really based on the data that you have come across.
07:10.94
Matthias Sutter
It really depends a lot on what's your ultimate goal naturally so what is right? and wrong really depends a little bit on where you want to get ah so in disrespect I believe there there is more than just one truce in this. So in principle I believe equal opportunities is to think that we should create firsthand and and think about outcomes later on because first is that everybody would would have an opportunity to kind of advance his or her her own career now. Actually it can go both ways the biases that we have so for instance in in one of the chapters in the book I'm um. Um, reporting about the study which shows that in academia for instance, well I have most experienced myself. Actually it's very bad if more women are in the hiring committee for young women as applicants because the more women are in the committee the more ah likely it is that. Ah. Women fail in their applications actually which as many different reasons 1 of the explanation is that the more women are in committees the hars are male committee members charge female applicants one of the reasons speculative could be well they're saying we already have so many we don't need more I don't know. But that's the case but that's that's one opportunity but it's also it goes also another direction. So for instance, one of the things where which is particular around the world but also in particular in Germany currently very much discuss is about equal wages basically and and what we know from the evidence is that for instance women have.
08:34.23
Matthias Sutter
Completely different bargaining strategies for wages and for positions than men have so with equal opportunities in the sense I would say well give them a chance they can apply the best shall win. That's all fine, but that does not at all mean at all that at that stage will have equal outcomes because there are just behavioral differences to do to make this more precise. There is.
08:37.41
Ben Owden
Um, and.
08:53.95
Matthias Sutter
Recent evidence which for instance shows that women are much quicker in accepting job offers than men are less likely to count the bargain with third parties in order to to increase their their salaries and the offers that they can get from companies that will reduce their wages another another.
09:08.97
Ben Owden
Are.
09:11.56
Matthias Sutter
Even if they don't bargain with others. Another behavioral difference is that men are more much more likely to ask I would want to have more right? is it possible women are more modest in distance. So this is all basically it tells us we could now try to regulate all of these I'm strictly against this. Ah, what I believe is that first of all humans are the masters of their own faith I would say so it's your responsibility and if your bargaining practices are not perfect for what you want to achieve improve your bargaining practices but let the state out of this and that.
09:37.65
Ben Owden
Um, you.
09:48.60
Matthias Sutter
They shouldn't regulate this.
09:51.14
Ben Owden
Um, interesting and and actually speaking of that because that was then I was this ties into the other aspect or other other finding that you have this idea of competition and how it is not. If we were to observe adults. It's not natural for women to easily choose to compete in a competitive environment compared to men and then of course I I particularly liked that 2 studies there I think one was for from the Masai Community I mean I think I forgot the other one where that one was based on where the you know. Communities that are very matriarchal so to speak women tend to be more open to competition but the current reality is that most modern women are not um, either nurtured Oh maybe nature I don't really know they're not really prone to actually.
10:27.88
Matthias Sutter
You.
10:45.45
Ben Owden
Accept competition very easily which means in a competitive cutthroat world especially for profit sector I think sometimes in the Nonprofit World. You know there's more of the push for diversity and so a lot of things are taken into consideration. But for the for Profit World. You know tech companies um financial companies um insurance companies. It's cutthroat you have to eat what you kill so to speak. Um, it's competition. So How should people in positions of power look at that particular piece of data knowing that um, using competition really alone as a way of filtering through candidates or assessing or measuring. Um, you know someone's competence might actually put certain groups at a disadvantage so is is there a way to expand how we view. Um, people's competence outside of competition.
11:28.30
Matthias Sutter
Yeah.
11:36.69
Matthias Sutter
Absolutely yes, So ah, let me start with the confession that I wouldn't want to live in a world where only men were competing all of the time around the clock. It would be terrible. Ah so in this respect, It's good that you also have other people in particular more women than men ah that that. Feel comfortable in competing all of the time and and they have kind of different different ah Priorities. You could say and this is very good Now. It depends very much on what the company is needing. Actually if you need say if if this is a very bargaining intensive industry where you're working. You might want to recruit.
12:01.36
Ben Owden
No.
12:10.60
Matthias Sutter
People who are more competitive in bargaining about things and who like these situations more than others and it might not be a good idea to hire those who to just hate it and what to shy away from it. So in this respect again. There is no one size feeds-all solution. Ah if a company needs competitive people screen it this way.
12:24.29
Ben Owden
Are you.
12:30.37
Matthias Sutter
But in most places I would say also corporation ah social preferences fairness concerns. They do matter how people can work together within companies and for that only having competitive people would certainly be a mistake.
12:42.59
Ben Owden
Um.
12:48.48
Ben Owden
Ah, something else that I I was so happy when I saw this of course it's ah not happy in the sense that I want things to be this way but I had a hunch about this for a while. So when I saw that I was like okay I'm I'm glad that. Um you know I was. Thinking along the correct lines and this idea that while working from home is a great thing. It increases productivity and everything else, but it might hurt your career when I saw that I was like I had a feeling that um, well this is a great thing. But if.
13:14.95
Matthias Sutter
That.
13:23.61
Ben Owden
1 chooses to do this 100% of the time it might get in the way of their own career development and growth and so I guess here what I was wondering is do you think this? this is a result of you know us not being able to quickly let go of very old traditions. We're so used to working a certain way for you know. Hundreds of years or is this just the reality of the human condition that you know we tend to put people in positions of more influence the closer we are proximity wise than those who we feel like are far away from us.
13:58.60
Matthias Sutter
I think is clearly the letter certainly because the behavioral insights that are behind this main result that that working from home can kill your career with I say it can be bad for your career. Is something which is related to social networks and in ah in 1 sentence you could summarize defining is out of sign out of sight out of mind. So that's what's happening with people who are mainly working from home. Ah, because for any time a kind of promotion decision. You need to get good relations I'm not talking only about kind of social networks being so decisive but but more say if the 2 of us work together and and you're my superior and and I would be up for say promotion. You want to know whether. But Mathhias would be able to lead other people how he would be able to manage conflict that this is so much more difficult to judge when you would only interact with me and on a remote version or not at all if I work at home just isolated without ever meeting and seeing you so in thispect it's it's also about. Ah, believe that being in the office is something which superiors need to experience their subordinates how they handle social situations and how how they're able to motivate people inspire them again. Solve conflicts and and this is so much more difficult if you only meet people in Zoom Conferences
15:15.28
Ben Owden
Um, and then.
15:20.15
Matthias Sutter
Now I would say there is plenty plenty of evidence showing this by now that that working from home is bad for your career. However I believe this is one of the main challenges when I talk to companies industries entrepreneurs that they need to find ways of keeping good relations also to people that work from home. Because they offer more productive so it would be a super waste for companies to to lose them in order not to promote them because those are good people actually so so you need to have regular meetings casuals ideas also kind of sometimes this is what many companies nowadays do have say you you have to be here two days per week that you. Really establish safeguard guarantee those personal exchange and I believe this is ah and this relates to your first hypothesis. It's a little bit. We need to reorganize how how we interact in companies given the opportunities now of working remotely which is great for many purposes but but but. Great for others.
16:18.80
Ben Owden
Um I like that because ah because ah think from what you were saying the hybrid model where you know we do have opportunities to work from home. But at the same time we intentionally make plans to be together in the same space. That can probably yield better far better results than just strictly sticking to 1 either exclusively working from the office or people working in their home spaces something else that you you've shared in the book which is something that I've heard so many. Um.
16:36.98
Matthias Sutter
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:49.50
Ben Owden
Leaders Ceos complain about is this concept of job hopping because right now retention is ah one of those challenges that a lot of organizations are struggling with to retain especially to retain younger people so millennials Gen Z There's almost like this career formal that.
16:53.26
Matthias Sutter
So yeah.
17:00.50
Matthias Sutter
Are.
17:07.91
Ben Owden
Is there where people just want to you know a year two years and then on the next thing and amongst peers that's seen as a success and actually I even I've heard conversations of people talking about. You know if you've only been in the same company for four or five years that's it's like you know why? why? you are you.
17:15.54
Matthias Sutter
Is it.
17:27.31
Ben Owden
You're less ambitious. You're comfortable. So the idea is to just like make sure you put you know your clock in your 2 years a year and a half and onto better things so to speak but actually data shows that employer prefer employers prefer people who stay in.
17:34.93
Matthias Sutter
Just.
17:44.92
Ben Owden
You know places longer because that's a display of loyalty and loyalty seems to be 1 of those virtues that people who are hiring look for especially so what? what was interesting to you particularly in regards to this? um and how should this inform how we.
17:51.77
Matthias Sutter
Is it.
17:57.33
Matthias Sutter
Yeah.
18:03.40
Ben Owden
Look at our commitments to the organizations that we work for.
18:07.16
Matthias Sutter
Yeah, so this is actually one of the the chapters dearest to my heart for the following reason I've I've been teaching now. The university's young bride scholars for 20 years or more and and introductory lectures with 800 people in the room. So I've ah. Lots of exposure to those young people and and I always when talking to them in in the breaks I always get the impression. They really feel under strong pressure to chop hop every two so ah, at most 3 years actually to just show to the market that they are so wonderfully flexible that they are ambitious and whatsoever.
18:37.75
Ben Owden
Um, um.
18:42.40
Matthias Sutter
And and hardly I don't I can't recall a single person a single student that I ever had who was kind of questioning whether that was a reasonable strategy at all. It was just taken as a given and for that reason I was so I was a really I was really I saw. This is strange right? Why are they doing this is this really good and that's why how I came into this topic and and and did research on it and and the evidence is pretty clear. Um, if you compare in in a very nice elaborate design. Proper identification if you compare someone who for instance has been working 2 years ah in 4 different countries. So basically 2 2 2 2 8 years ah gone for employers and another person basically running through the same department same responsibilities but within 1 company for 8 years then those people who chop up every two years get fewer invitations for new jobs if they apply this. This is the first result of this study. But the more important one is actually what you were already alluding to the more important one is and then those those researchers were asking hr people kind of the the leading people who decide upon hiring. How would you touch those different cvs 1 having another job every 2 year the other person staying in a company for longer. And there' is a huge difference in perception. So people who stay longer. They're perceived as loyal. Okay, so far so good. They're also perceived as team-oriented because otherwise I mean if you if you cannot survive in a team and solve conflict. You will never survive for 8 years in a company or ten or twenty years in a company because
20:12.19
Matthias Sutter
There's always an issue of conflict some type. Yeah, but you need to you need to find ways of solving this. So this is this is perceived for the ah Hr people as as abilities non-cognitive abilities. We're not talking about like Iq or technical skills or whatever.
20:13.53
Ben Owden
No.
20:27.29
Matthias Sutter
Of non-cognitive kind of soft skills that people get along with each other but they can find compromises they can cooperate. They can coordinate their actions. They're also loyal towards the company kind of promoting it outside and this is why I want to. Make this known in particular also to young people look. There is a downside of this job Hopping. You really are perceived as kind of. Oh yeah, you do this? Okay, That's fine, but the other ones have have many properties being associated with that that companies really value loyalty and patience. Really not giving up too early fighting your way up in the company and that that's important for for for individual success but also for company's success and for that Reason. Ah, this is one of the most important chapters in my opinion.
21:12.53
Ben Owden
Yeah, definitely because I think we live in a world where you know you're absolutely right? that people have not questioned that line of thinking um and and and there are examples of people who have been successful and not spent a lot of time in one organization. But I think you know.
21:28.49
Matthias Sutter
Drop.
21:31.77
Ben Owden
If we're to look at the data like you said that it actually speaks otherwise ah and and I know that's ah one of those biases that we have where we tend to look at you know one and completely overlook the million standing behind them who've not succeeded using that same approach but we just focus on the few. So yeah, definitely that was for me was very like.
21:44.33
Matthias Sutter
That is.
21:50.18
Ben Owden
Good to actually hear that Yes, I'm glad that there's data behind this now something else that was fascinating for me particularly was this aspect of salary transparency because you know. How much people get paid. You know, depending on the culture that you're from sometimes it could be the most guarded secret someone has you know it's It's common practice for you know people who work in ah Hr or finance to sign confidentiality agreements saying that they're not going to disclose what you know people are making etc.
22:11.49
Matthias Sutter
Yeah, yeah.
22:25.59
Ben Owden
Um, and but actually there are examples of places who've said. Okay, let's just open it up. Let's make sure people have access to this information people know what they're you know let's just be transparent. About how much people get paid. You know across the organization and and particularly I think that the example of California that she used was quite fascinating, especially the unintended consequences of having such transparency. So can you speak a little bit on that.
22:51.49
Matthias Sutter
Yeah, so so transparency is something which politically nowadays also seems to be 1 of those givens right? Transeverity is good full stop and we're done so the interesting aspect is that. This can go exactly the other way around and the californian study was a study motivated by the observation that a few high-level city officials were were earning lots of money. Ah, true. Admittedly, and so this was perceived as waste of taxpayers' money and for that reason. Um. Actually about about ten fifteen years ago ah there was a law enacted that that those ah the cities need to disclose the salaries of of their all their public officials now. The consequences for the top level officials was as follows they were more likely to resign their jobs and it was much more difficult to replace them and it took much more time to replace them. Why is that the case. So first of all now I'm only talking about the public sector for the moment. So first of all, if you earn lots of money in the public sector.
23:45.20
Ben Owden
Are.
23:55.39
Matthias Sutter
Most likely you can also learn earn lots of money in the private sector and sometimes even much much more than that. So disrespect. It's kind of those people do have outside options and in a sense. It's also as always demotivating if someone tells you oh look you earn too much now we make this public. Actually there's lots of pressure involved. And that is now the reason why replacing those public Coficis which are for instance important for for ah acquiring industries which companies which settle in in the city's cdistrict in order to create some tax revenues for the city of course and this is this these are super valuable jobs now if.
24:15.46
Ben Owden
Um.
24:33.80
Matthias Sutter
If you apply for such a job and and ah you know you're under super close scrutiny. This is not good for motivating people to apply for these jobs because in the private industry. You're much less under scrutiny and so it makes your life psychologically much easier. So this is this is something which um. This case from California shows that it can be a double-ish sword probably I would agree that transparency up up within limits is something which is useful. People should know what's in the market or what what you can earn in a sense. But on the other hand disclosing everything. Ah this car. Ah disregards 1 of the main human motivating factors in which is envy also I'm sorry to say but humans are not always only wonderful beings but also sometimes pretty nasty envious persons.
25:17.28
Ben Owden
Um.
25:23.96
Ben Owden
Yeah, yeah.
25:25.20
Matthias Sutter
And and disclosing Everything is very bad and now what is not in the in the book currently ah but but what just recently was was came out in in our magazine. Ah, Journals actually is something that if if you make.
25:41.16
Matthias Sutter
Make it known that people at your level of your career earn money than you This is super de motivattiving because nobody wants to be below average. Ah so this Ispec disclosure could really backfire for companies productivity a lot and this is something which so.
25:48.38
Ben Owden
Um, and.
25:59.99
Matthias Sutter
Which is typically not at all discussed when we think about whether transparency is something good or bad because this effect of Nd and demotivation is simply kind of simply ignored and I believe this is a mistake.
26:13.96
Ben Owden
That's a very actually interesting observation especially on the envy part because Envy is also sort of like double-edged sword because on one end if you don't know then you know your imagination runs wild as to what that is and your. Motivated to work really hard to probably overthrow or take over somebody else's position. But if you do know it can have that reverse effect where now you're demotivated because you feel like okay this is just unfair or this and that so it's very interesting How this.
26:29.61
Matthias Sutter
That that that.
26:40.17
Matthias Sutter
Yeah, yeah.
26:45.99
Ben Owden
Human condition can either drive you forward or it could just give you this sense of hopelessness where you feel like Okay, what's the point at this and also I think also because I think transparency especially if people are not prepared or if the culture within the organization is not. Ah, created in such ah in a healthy way in a healthy state so to speak it can be catastrophic. Um, when people have access to and not just salary I Think that's just one way of looking at it. But I think if people if the country if this you know if if a nation if the government the president decides to disclose information about what's going on.
27:09.87
Matthias Sutter
Yeah.
27:24.95
Ben Owden
Um, if people are not prepared to handle that that that could lead to all kinds of you know catastrophic um outcomes so to speak. So I think I like what you said transparency but within certain um limits or boundaries so to speak um is probably maybe the better way recognizing all these um human.
27:44.73
Ben Owden
Characters flaws that we have you know Envy being one of them and you know many others of course, something else now speaking of this human condition you speak about prejudice and how prejudiced you know, managers can hurt employee productivity and really more as a result of neglect.
27:47.27
Matthias Sutter
And.
28:01.11
Matthias Sutter
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
28:02.68
Ben Owden
Rather than just intentional active discrimination because I think sometimes when you think of you know, prejudice you like? Okay, you're discriminating but actually um I am prejudiced against a certain group and as a result of that I'm keeping my distance really?? Um, and maybe that's just how. Your wire. That's your reflex when you know when you're prejudiced against a certain group. You just keep a distance either. You know, um I'm a man you're a woman. So um, whatever that prejudice comes in whatever form so that was quite fascinating to me this idea that it's more of this subconscious distancing that takes place when you're prejudiced against.
28:33.70
Matthias Sutter
Yeah, it yeah.
28:38.20
Ben Owden
Someone or a certain group and how that can actually hurt someone's career, especially if you're in a position of power. So um, how critical is self-awareness as far as being in a position of power because if someone is completely unaware of.
28:43.19
Matthias Sutter
Yeah.
28:55.32
Ben Owden
Their reactions that actually because I think sometimes when people know that there's prejudice they tend to assume the worst that you know you have nasty behavior towards people you are intentionally sabotaging them. But maybe that's not the case. Maybe actually you're not doing anything to intentionally sabotage. Someone's future but you're just you're not doing anything.
29:01.24
Matthias Sutter
That.
29:08.57
Matthias Sutter
Yep.
29:14.12
Ben Owden
To actively engage them. So how significant is self-awareness and if when someone does become self-aware. What's probably the right thing to do to you know, intentionally draw closer.
29:15.25
Matthias Sutter
Cut. Yes, yeah.
29:26.60
Matthias Sutter
That's a very good question Actually I believe your your mentioning of Self-awareness is kind of the reverse side of having a blind spot somehow and this is this is what this this study showed very clearly in French supermarket stores where where the line managers were basically.
29:36.27
Ben Owden
Um, and.
29:44.60
Matthias Sutter
Neglecting not giving good feedback not contacting not talking to not not giving advice how to improve to those to those cashiers which they sought. Ah well which they discriminated against which was mainly african-based ah persons. Ah in France there and. This is something which I also deliberately included in in in the book because discrimination as you were saying is usually associated with an active act of being unfair towards somebody now here it was much much more subtle but had the same effects in the sense that something. Which which we as as say employees need is that we get feedback that we are having a conversation with our superiors and if this is not given kind of we feel isolated and disregarded and disrespectfully treated. And this is a form of discrimination actually in which really hinders also our our career advancement now for that reason. So for instance psychologists use what? what is known and ah used in this study. Also this implicit dissociation test where you're trying to find out so what kind of pairs of terms are are related to each other say. Ah say ah but let me give you an example brazilians good football players. For instance, there boop be 1 thing or austrians would be good skiers. So so that would also be closely linked together or germans being punctual or whatsoever kind of you. You measure kind of stereotypes in a sense and the quicker people respond to those pairs and what they relate to each other.
31:02.28
Ben Owden
I mean.
31:17.81
Matthias Sutter
The stronger disease Now these tests can exactly speak to what you were mentioning now. Whether people are autoa aware of what they bring together what kind of characteristic with what kind of people exactly and I mean if that's very useful. It does not mean that you're.
31:28.46
Ben Owden
I Mean you know the pairing that explodes. Yeah.
31:37.36
Matthias Sutter
Become immune to discriminating or kind of stereotypically treating some other people. But at least you become aware of it. Um, and this is actually something which so for instance in in Germany at the Marx Planx society we also try to. We don't call it a bayness training. Anyway, we kind of call it. Becoming more sensitive and kind of treating different people from different backgrounds and in the proper way which is kind of well fitting to to their situation and this is something which which you can improve upon I think it's difficult because we humans have our blind spots. That's how it is I have it others have it.
32:12.70
Ben Owden
Ah.
32:13.79
Matthias Sutter
Ah, on the other hand trying to reflect upon one's own blind spots is something which which helps I'm not saying we we turn into Angels I'm saying it helps it improves.
32:26.53
Ben Owden
Hels yeah yeah, actually the funny thing is I recently wrote an article and published and in the article I was talking about this concept of work-life balance and saying maybe we should aim for work life satisfaction rather than balance and in all of the examples that I give there I speak about parenting.
32:37.32
Matthias Sutter
Yeah.
32:44.30
Ben Owden
And then I say you know? Yeah, So let's say you want to be a mother So as soon as I said parenting I mentioned mother and published. It's online. It's out there and then I run into someone that I know who actually read their article and she is a mother and then she came to me and she said why did you say mother. Why did you not say parenting and you know how come this word parenting is forever associated with motherhood right? It can actually be the other way around. But I but I like what you said there this idea that looking for those moments of Wow. Okay, why do I think of women when I think of.
33:12.39
Matthias Sutter
Are.
33:20.95
Matthias Sutter
That that.
33:21.81
Ben Owden
Parenting instead of the other way around. Um, why do I think of this group when I think of this particular word or phenomenon you know So I think yeah, definitely if we pay attention to our own words if we pay attention to how we communicate and some of the associations we make between Concepts and people I think it will be a good way to sort of like figure this out.
33:39.74
Matthias Sutter
Yeah.
33:41.43
Ben Owden
Ah, something else that you speak on which made a lot of sense because there's a book that I read a while ago called the captain class. Where basically it's based on like 50 years of you know research particularly in team sports. So any sport that has a team of at least 5 people and they've competed so they're looking at dynasties teams that have been very successful. Um for a period of at least four years consecutively and what contributed to their success and so you know this goes all the way back to the time when Pelo was playing football all the way to I think like messy. Messies error so they were looking at all of us and just analyzing the data and to see okay and in their analysis. They came to realize that all teams had a captain who had certain qualities and usually they were not the most talented player on the. On their teams. You know I think in in Barcelona's era I think it was pool who was actually the captain. Not even messy. So so and and in in in the observation so this looked at okay, what sort of qualities does this captain have you know that they inspire or they rally they lead their team to such success and 1 of.
34:36.46
Matthias Sutter
That that.
34:53.28
Ben Owden
1 of the qualities was this sense of just ironclad commitment where this is someone who is willing to die on the pitch basically and as a result of that everybody else levels up everybody else says you know what I can't slack I can't um I have to go above and beyond because my captain.
34:59.17
Matthias Sutter
You.
35:12.37
Ben Owden
Is doing exactly that. Um and just like countless scenarios and and so when I came across this concept where you talk about this idea of almost like peer pressure tied to productivity where people's productivity is actually influenced by those around it on them and more specifically people are inspired to be more productive. Depending on who's actually watching them versus who they're watching So who's behind me who's actually paying attention to my performance. Um, that has more of an effect to someone's productivity I Thought that was just like amazing to just have like data to actually support that and then that made so much sense as far as.
35:33.69
Matthias Sutter
And.
35:48.63
Ben Owden
Um, what this book was talking about and these teams because typically we would think that if you have this superstar who's highly talented and very productive if I watch them then I will be inspired but actually who's watching you has a much greater impact on your productivity than who you're watching. Um, so I mean.
36:04.73
Matthias Sutter
Um, and this is yeah sorry sorry for interrupting you I wanted to say and this this is again driven by this this really I would say innate human characteristic that we care about our social image.
36:06.67
Ben Owden
Yeah, so you go ahead now.
36:18.32
Matthias Sutter
We social beings that means we only develop the way we did over the past ten thousands of years by being successful in in working together in groups living together in groups and in order to be successful in that you need to be considered a good citizen. And that's like in the football team that you are now I'm a big big fan of football. So so this is so convincing in a sense. The guy that leads the squat on the field is basically the person whom you want to show really I also doing everything for the team of course that task require.
36:38.96
Ben Owden
Um, yeah.
36:51.87
Matthias Sutter
That this captain also has this as you were saying I leave my life on the Bitt right for us and so the others will do. This is this is ah the social image concern and also this conditional corporation as I see others really doing the best that they can I don't want to. Kind of disappoint them I don't want to let them down and this is this is an innate human characteristic I mean many of the studies that I've been doing that others have been doing have shown that about 70% of people are this type of conditional coopers if they see others to contribute to the team success. They're super happy to do this as well and this can be. Should be used in fact because it basically means a successful team needs needs someone who is setting a good example like the good captain Habio Kanavara for italy 2026 ah pale in in the 1970 s for for brazilian 60 s for Brazil France baumba same I would say in Germany. So so those are kind of the guys who set the example this is how we should do it. Follow me kind of and then humans do follow. It's just fantastic.
37:56.20
Ben Owden
Yeah I Actually like this ah concept of conditional cooperation because it speaks into something else that it's also mentioned this idea that markets undermine acting morally in comparison to a decision taken alone this concept that. The group tends to have a lot of influence. Um to the individual even when it comes to being moral and ethical in the workplace. So while yes, you know that sense of conditional cooperation in a group setting can propel you to you know?? ah higher levels of productivity but that same condition if you know not.
38:15.80
Matthias Sutter
Yeah.
38:32.26
Matthias Sutter
And.
38:34.00
Ben Owden
Um, I don't even know what the word maybe not curbed of sorts. It can be a source of Misconduct as far as you know morals and ethics Concerned. So How do we create such a good environment where. Sense of conditional cooperation only propels us forward rather than it being a source of you know great liability by you know, compromising our morals and ethics.
39:04.31
Matthias Sutter
Yeah, that's a good question if if I had the the perfect answer probably ah ah I'd save the world I don't have it. So so let me be more modest I Believe the the issue of conditional cooperation being a viable concept is something which does depend on.
39:21.94
Matthias Sutter
Smaller smaller groups I'm not saying small groups but in a sense of the person that you want to compare to should be persons that imprintably would be able to identify in a sense and interact. Ah personally with them something which in markets is practically impossible right? I mean. the new york stock exchange everybody in the world can can participate as a trader and that makes it super anonymous and and we have shown this all that this basically dilues responsibility as well. Meaning that. Well if I don't trade others will do it. So why not go for. The best price that I can get whatever that means whether there is child labor involved or whether there's environmental damage done who cares if I don't do it. Someone else will do it. This is this so-called replacement logic right? right? if I don't do it. Someone else will do it for that reason I can do it already myself and this is a cheap excuse. Now in small groups. This is this is much more difficult because in small groups. It would be possible that someone approaches you and says look much is why are you doing this come on. Didn't you see there is a negative externality you damaged this or that the environment or whoever and.
40:23.78
Ben Owden
Are.
40:31.56
Matthias Sutter
And on the market that will never happen because the only signals that you get there is basically where the price is going up or down whether you sold or whether you bought something that's it and there is nothing more than that. So and we do need a believe we really do need personal interaction to to also uphold ah personal values.
40:38.75
Ben Owden
Are.
40:49.73
Matthias Sutter
But at the same time Of course you can think about. Can we find better trading platforms with better feedback. So I believe lots of the success of online platforms like ebay or others is is built on these reputation systems of giving feedback ratings that that.
40:58.30
Ben Owden
Ah.
41:07.35
Matthias Sutter
Kind of transform an anonymous interaction into someone where reputation is at Stake and that Upholds values that you should send the product on time you should pay on time. You shouldn't delay this. You shouldn't send fraudent products or whatsoever or broken products as soon as social social.
41:14.62
Ben Owden
On the.
41:25.87
Matthias Sutter
I would say checks and balances come in. It's easier to uphold moral values.
41:31.31
Ben Owden
Actually ah I find that quite interesting because there's this concept I think of um competition where and I know Microsoft and Apple tend to be used as examples of this where people tend to say that you know Microsoft. Was always competing with Apple and Apple was not competing with anyone. Um, but this idea that um, based on what you were saying so it sounds to me that it would it. It would be a better strategy to not compete with anyone externally. Um, because I do see that quite a lot there where people if people are so fixed on external competition when they have to make a decision when they have to when there's a potential client but you know the client has their own conditions that you know are compromising some of the values that the organization stands for the conversation is. If. We don't do it somebody else will if we say no to the client somebody else is going to pick them up. Our competition is going to say yes, right? So then which means you are driven by the market and you will probably compromise on some of the values. You say you stand for as an organization. Um, versus if.
42:32.70
Matthias Sutter
Is.
42:38.57
Ben Owden
You're not really competing with anybody but you're driven by the values. Whether it's excellence whether it's um, you know, looking out for the world around you Um, whatever it is then it's a lot easier for somebody to stand up and say hey by the way heading in this direction making this decision taking this approach. Is contrary to what we say we are as an organization versus you know, if that's not really if you're not looking inward you're looking outside. It's very easy to find logic and common sense in saying if we don't do it. Somebody else is going to do it and they're going to have an edge over us. So Would you say that's probably more productive.
43:10.82
Matthias Sutter
Is.
43:13.97
Ben Owden
Approach for organizations to.
43:18.40
Matthias Sutter
Yeah, ah oh otherwise it's so difficult. Ah, because I mean if companies are driven out of the market. They cannot do any good any longer. Ah, naturally so so there are limits how you can follow your values but I do believe that.
43:27.82
Ben Owden
Um, un.
43:32.35
Matthias Sutter
That companies are well advised to really reflect upon what are the values that you want to uphold because they set the red Flagx. What are you? What are you kind of willing to do and which steps you're willing. To take to get say a job an order. Ah ah, kind of a public procurement ah saying and and whatnot and I believe this is super important because once once you start kind of betraying your own values. You're you're on the slope down into immorally in.
44:08.54
Matthias Sutter
Into immoral behavior that should be avoided for that reason I believe it's good to reflect upon your values.
44:12.25
Ben Owden
Um, so something else that you know you also speak about as well of another finding that was quite interesting to me is this idea that good leaders model the behavior they want to see in others and people imitate and it's something that you've you know, mentioned here as well. This idea that.
44:25.91
Matthias Sutter
Got got.
44:31.77
Ben Owden
You know with people who are close and certainness around us. We tend to imitate each other's behavior whether that's part of our you know cooperation you know societies. But um, actually someone else that I had on the podcast David Allen who um were talking and he identifies as.
44:38.45
Matthias Sutter
That.
44:48.85
Ben Owden
You know, um, he says I'm the same person that I was when I was younger you know I hold the same views and values and when he was younger he was you know he went to Jail I think um, he he had certain views that contradicted the Society. He was a part of and so but now he's. And much different man is Calm. He's just a different person and someone asked him you know like have you changed and he's like I haven't changed I'm just ah I just have a high level of cooperation. That's what I've developed I cooperate very well with the world around me. But I think some of that corporation that we have tends to lead to this sense of imitation and.
45:17.44
Matthias Sutter
That.
45:25.18
Ben Owden
What seems to be working or what seems to draw us in our environment but at the same time that imitation can you know can be good or bad because you also say that a bad corporate culture can turn honest people into lies as well. Um, so I did understanding this I guess.
45:35.71
Matthias Sutter
Yeah, that.
45:43.17
Ben Owden
Mimesis that tends to take place in people right? We tend to want to become some of the things that are appealing around us. Um, as organizations. How can we make sure that we build the right cultures. But also we have a very low tolerance for Misconduct because you also say that you know big.
45:47.19
Matthias Sutter
Is.
46:02.93
Ben Owden
And ethical things that happen usually started with something very small. There was something small that happened that was tolerated and eventually and you use an example of even the economic crash of all 7 or 8 as an example for that as well.
46:07.94
Matthias Sutter
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
46:17.54
Matthias Sutter
Yeah, absolutely. Ah, let let me start with the with the last Point. So I believe here it's really very important to have a culture say something if you see something and that it's accepted that that. People have a voice and while I see this and that it's not working properly. We We compromise on our own values. We. We say we cheat on customers For example, even even if it's a tiny little bit saying ah kind of it's stop stop in the beginning. That's a super important thing in order to be able to do so because you know. The problem with whistleblowers is they're often always perceived as Illoyal and they never have any career afterwards in the company I've never seen a single case for this. So why? Yeah, exactly right's saying they're perceived as that although they're super important but but this is usually I believe this is the case because.
46:59.30
Ben Owden
Craters.
47:09.10
Matthias Sutter
They only come in at the very final stage where the damage is so big or the crime that has been conducted kind of kind of go unnoticed any longer. Ah that that then it's kind of well it's kind of shocking. And and everybody accuses them of why did you say it? but but bos it was inevit in a sense to see it ultimately now and for that reason you need to stop much earlier where people can say oh well, that's true I shouldn't do this tiny thing right. There is a way back while if you if you're already deep into trouble. You cannot say oh well now I changed the last two years of my business conduct were wrong. So I'm sorry I'm now I change that typically it's too late because you have left traces somewhere and have done wrong things. Ah which you cannot avoid but tiny mistakes. They can be rescued. They can be safe. They can customers can be compensated. The environment can be compensated all of these things kind of cleaned up and so for that reason you need the climate that that also other viewpoints are acceptable and this is also. Very important for meetings kind of giving people the impression that whatever you say it's it's okay and then we deal with it in the in the sober relaxed manner and try to make a good decision whether we or not we need to act.
48:30.58
Matthias Sutter
Now how do you get to there this this is this is okay this this is not easy. My first reaction would have been you said okay depends so much what kind of culture. Do we get I believe hiring is the most important thing about what culture you ultimately have because the people that you hire they make up the culture of a company. There are rules. That's true. However, people need to live. Those rules and then it's the people who determine whether people follow those rules whether they are broken whether they are bent whether they are rewritten things like that. And for that reason, let me give you a very precise example which is also in the book. So so we have a paper basically showing that. People ah well university students that are not super trustworthy in experimental games are exactly the people who later on go into the finance industry. This is terrible. That's it super terrible because kind of they they they cheat on clients money later on in many cases. Now we were interested. Why is that the case and then we were asking h are people in those companies in in the financial industry and they they didn didn't even mention the word trustworthiness of or trust as ah as a trade that they are looking for in candidate they were looking for technical skills. Ah, competence in bargaining and whatsoever I mean all of the things which are kind of important for the bottom line but which are not important for trustworthy relationship. Ah so for that reason hiring is super important now you've hired. Some people can you change this within the company. Yes to some extent.
50:00.93
Matthias Sutter
You can implement business cultures that it's good that you let people speak up that you find compromises when they are not of your opinion and that helps a lot to avoid bad. Ah I would say toxic cultures where it's just the boss. Saying from the top above what is being done and what is not being done and what is correct and not correct or what is morally immoral and so in this respect you can train this yeah you can you can improve the meeting culture. For instance, whether people can object to what what you're saying are for instance. Common mistake in meeting things. Big boss speaks first and everybody else later on just agrees. Oh boss, you're so wonderful I also agree with you then that's the wrong order you need to let the others speak first and then you hear you hear the most important person's opinion. So all of these can be trained and it can be done but of course. Was in limits.
50:50.20
Ben Owden
Now speaking of of leaders another concept as well. Which was quite interesting this idea of visionary leaders versus operation oriented leaders and I think at at 1 point you even differentiate between leaders and and managers and.
51:05.53
Matthias Sutter
Yeah.
51:08.99
Ben Owden
The interesting thing there was how leaders are in short supply versus you know, ah Managers. So but I think for me, it's this idea of visionary leaders and particularly this concept of Charisma How people who are charismatic, Um, especially in their communication. The impact that they have as far as inspiration and motivation within their teams is equal to an organization that decides to offer monetary rewards to people. Um, and so if you could just maybe share with us the particular experiment and just how.
51:36.40
Matthias Sutter
So yeah, stop.
51:42.14
Matthias Sutter
That.
51:45.58
Ben Owden
These findings should influence going back to hiring right? The type of skills that we look for for leaders, especially leaders who rank higher in organizations.
51:52.90
Matthias Sutter
Right? Thanks a lot. Yeah, that's an interesting study which which did the following so there was a children's hospital and they were doing a fundraising campaign and the researchers hired about 200 people who had to prepare envelopes staff them put this. Small ah presenttuit handwritten addresses and all of these kind of make it really kind of visual and nice. Ah for potential donors and so in one condition they were simply explained the task but actually by a trained actor I should add. And what they would need to do and wow. Wonderful explanation. Everything is there what they needed to do and another treatment which they call now the Karraisma treatment this trained actor about oneird of those workers were instructed in with what is usually called a. Rhetorically brilliant speech which is also often associated with charismma. So so typically examples are name 3 3 bullet points. Why something is important speak in analogies. So for instance. Think of the kids and and have have kind of 1 of their favorite toys in your mind when you prepare this and and entered yeah that that would most likely do most known example in the world I would I would guess exactly something like this.
53:00.68
Ben Owden
Like the Martin Luther King I have a dream speech that would be a perfect example for.
53:12.61
Ben Owden
Um, now.
53:14.63
Matthias Sutter
Again, not not overdoing it in the sense but really kind of like ah like a good ah Sundays preach also in a sense that you get really people engaged and what they found is that productivity of workers increased by about 20% depending on the different way of of how they were instructed to do so. And now comes to saying that you were also adding already now they had a search condition where they have this kind of neutral explanation of the task but they pay more money well paying more money usually makes people a bit more productive that that's what we often find and now here it was they could simply show that paying more money is equally effective as having this charismatic speech which cost you less. But and that means so the way of really getting people engaged in in using rhetoric scales as something which can motivate people. Ah actually to be happier at work and and happier at work meaning being better at work. This is something which. 1 of the main main main misunderstandings that that I experience when I talk to company leaders. They often believe that why would I care for workplace climate I only care about productivity and then I'll tell them look. This is not either or it's both and the 1 thing determines. The other thing.
54:25.81
Ben Owden
Um, know.
54:27.20
Matthias Sutter
And this is this is related also to this charismatic approach kind of if people are able to convince others. It's useful What we're doing it really makes sense. It helps somebody not only myself Also others. So that really appeals to people and and resonates with them and and I believe that that's super important and for productivity and then everybody wins in my opinion.
54:48.73
Ben Owden
Um, now as we're sort of like drawing to a close something else that you share towards the end of the book is this. You know the distinguishing between managers and leaders which was fascinating because I think. You know it's a conversation that's always been happening but actually giving very clear language to the differences between the 2 was quite interesting and particularly I think um, there's 4 traits that you speak about that set ceos apart from other managers right? Strategic thinking charisma. Intellectual and social skills and focusing on results. So for maybe somebody who's you know listening and they're aspiring to rise up to ideally maybe the position of a managing director Ceo. How important are these skills and you know maybe what are some of the ways that they could actually start to develop some of these skills.
55:41.97
Matthias Sutter
Um, well ah so the research shows that those skills set the the people who really end up in the board or at the Ceo position are even better than than middle and upper level managers. So in the sense. Having better social and intellectual skills and it's very important. Also the social skills super important. So so the the Ceo and board members are typically not the asocial arrogant egoist. But those are people who have skills and getting along with people. Well this is the social skills of it. This is super important. Being able to get to results is something which you can learn by having strict agendas controlling deadlines ah kind of monitoring what you're doing not not on ah on a really millimeter level but really on kind of in the and in the longer term project implementation. And Charisma is something which is related to rhetoric skills which can be trained naturally I mean not everybody will become a Martin Luther King naturally not but people can improve ah and and all of not all of these but but parts of it can be trained. this is the good news I would say and ah this is what separates the real top people from the good people I would say which is great we need those many good peoples. Ah good people but but some aspire more and and it can be It can be It can be done but by the way something which i.
56:59.80
Ben Owden
Um, and.
57:10.24
Matthias Sutter
Which I would like to add here is that one of the skills that is assessed in assessment centers for board members or Ceo positions is whether those people have been able to develop others to really develop others into stars into into leaders themselves. And this is something which I find really great if if someone is a good person but but not kind of of the time. Well I only need bad persons around me so because that will let more light china on myself. But rather we have the strengths and the greatness of of developing also others and let them grow into into real. Important leading figures cornerstones of an institution and this is often overlooked that developing others is is a skill that is important for companies because many people believe I should only develop myself. Ah and I believe this this is very bad and the good leaders also have disability.
58:05.71
Ben Owden
I like that because I think um one of my friends his name is quesi. He he said something to me before you know this concept of delegating his way out of a job meaning that I will delegate so well and empower my team.
58:20.13
Matthias Sutter
Is.
58:22.70
Ben Owden
To a point where they can replace me and I just have to now figure out What's the next step for myself. So I think that definitely speaks speaks to that versus working so hard to protect your position and making sure that no one is close enough and ready to take over your position. Um, so now um.
58:29.93
Matthias Sutter
Ah, yeah, that that.
58:40.30
Ben Owden
We come to the end and I would like to ask you the 1 one 1 which is a question that we ask all of our guests right? What is the 1 book you read at some point in your career but you say man if only I had this book five 1015 years earlier what is the 1 habit that you have. Developed in time. But you wish you had developed it earlier and what is the 1 personal value that you will protect at all costs.
59:07.65
Matthias Sutter
Okay, let me start with the book and probably this is a surprising response now I'm a big fan of classical music and the book that I would have wanted to read earlier is is a biography of wolfanga madeos moart by an italian called Pie Ro Milokani and why would i. Wanted to read this earlier. It's amazing because I mean everybody in the world believes bozart was just the musical genius in the entire human history. But this biography tells us how much work was behind this. So. It's not only that you need to be a genius I mean he was literally. Being 3 4 or five years old he was spending thousands of hours on the piano to develop skills that later on made it possible for him to implement his ideas and put them on paper. And you know I use this example and there's there's 2 paragraphs in kind of in the introduction of this book which are read to my students in the introductory econ lectures in front of four hundred to eight hundred people to show them look. There is really this this work ethics. Even the geniuses need to work hard and it's not fun. All of the time and you really need to be persistent in in making up your way and this will help you later on. It's kind of I perceive it as a relief that.
01:00:33.62
Matthias Sutter
Oh well, you know those artists. It's so so easy for them right? Those geniuses everything is kind of given to them from Heaven. That's not the case. That's not at all the case and it's It's just it It inspires me to to think that Okay, let's keep on working even those people had to and and that. That will move you forward So I'm I'm super impressed by this and and my students always say well this is trade right about music in an econ lecture. But so this is back that it it creates their attention at least and also I like it from this perspective. Um, so.
01:01:06.27
Ben Owden
Interesting that the habit.
01:01:10.50
Matthias Sutter
The second one was about what kind of habit did I develop lately only and which I would have wanted to have earlier actually I believe this is the 1 thing being more relaxed. Ah the order I get de moreizing. Oh why you know things that upset me twenty years ago actually they were not so important. Ah life went on. Ah you make your failures you stand up. Try again, but it's not There's hardly anything that really is so dramatic that it devastates your whole life. Well.
01:01:29.58
Ben Owden
Are.
01:01:44.60
Matthias Sutter
You know, early in the career every rejection from a journal threatens your career and you take it super serious and you're in bad mood for two weeks ah this is so nice nowadays I feel much freer in kind of accepting all of the failures and okay life will go on I learned this ah I'm happy I'm I'm super happy in my life. But. There are moments where not everything is working perfectly and and I feel I can cope with this much better now than twenty thirty years ago and I wish everybody kind of had what kind of relaxed meaning that not doing anything but more relaxed in accepting things and moving on and. Trying to do better next time. So and what would I protect? Um, so excuse me.
01:02:24.29
Ben Owden
Wow. Ah, that's profound actually probably no I was just acknowledging that. Yeah,, that's definitely something that I've heard from several people and ironically it's people who've. Lived a certain period of time and you realize that you know like it's not as serious as you think it is in retrospect. Well I hope um a lot more younger people would sort of like accept that myself included just to say that. Okay, in retrospect, this is not going to be such a big deal.
01:02:41.85
Matthias Sutter
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:02:58.10
Ben Owden
So you know learning to accept things as they are yeah.
01:02:58.65
Matthias Sutter
Yeah, but it's super difficult and and but potentially perhaps you you you shouldn't even have it earlier I be I wished I had it earlier but but potentially that keeps you more energetic when you're early because you believe well this is so important now I need to do something? um. I Don't know Perhaps it's just the right as you get old. It. It changes. It's okay, ah yeah, potentially could be so the third one was so what I would protect protect under the valued under all circumstances. Well now it.
01:03:18.89
Ben Owden
Um, they have say it happens at the right time.
01:03:28.79
Ben Owden
Yes, yes.
01:03:33.31
Matthias Sutter
If you permit me I wouldn't want to respond with ah with a value but with my marriage and my family That's the most important thing for my life. Um, but that's potentially not what you had in mind when you were thinking about what's the value.
01:03:42.59
Ben Owden
Um, no, no, no, no actually actually that is definitely something that um, cool cause I actually I do this activity in some of my training sessions with people where I say you know, just write down things. Ah, some people write family and whatever and then to just see okay, what is the 1 and sometimes people they have family as one of the values. But when it comes down to saying this I will protect this no matter what it's not value. It's Korea sometimes sometimes it's you know my own reputation I will keep this so.
01:04:09.86
Matthias Sutter
Oh no come on. Okay I'm glad because it is the most important value This book is dedicated to my wife and to my beautiful and wonderful daughters Exactly Consancea chalota.
01:04:14.79
Ben Owden
So family. Definitely it count does count as ah as a value.
01:04:23.37
Ben Owden
2 daughters right? Yeah man.
01:04:29.36
Matthias Sutter
And without them. Everything will be completely unimportant.
01:04:34.79
Ben Owden
Um, yeah, they definitely I think that's important because you know in this work life and career and making a lot of decisions sometimes not having that clarity of what is the most important you know can. Give you this ambiguity when you're making decisions or you're not know so sometimes you make decisions that actually jeropardizes this thing that's actually the most important in your life but because you weren't very clear to begin with um, you know you compromise and then it's like you're left with regrets saying oh man, Why did I say yes to this.
01:04:56.30
Matthias Sutter
Got got.
01:05:07.71
Matthias Sutter
That that that you're welcome.
01:05:08.30
Ben Owden
Monetary gain here. But actually I've lost this most important thing along the way as well. So so thank you for for for that response. So we've come to to the end of our conversation. Um I don't know if you have any sort of like last. Um, words that you would like to so let let me give you a hypothetical just a scenario here. So let's say someone who's listening is a Ceo of a growing company. They you know they're in that growth stage. Um, and what is the 1 thing um or 1 insight from your book that you think. Is going to be fundamental for you know where they are right now you Ceo growth stage which means you're hiring people left right and center. Um, you know you're really, you're running. You're running as an organization and sometimes when you're running you can overlook a lot of things but in this stage.
01:05:58.19
Matthias Sutter
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so good. Leadership is key and do an act yourself what you? how you want others to do and act I believe this is this is super important because you will be. You will be perceived as.
01:06:01.63
Ben Owden
What advice would you have for them.
01:06:18.13
Matthias Sutter
Credible as an exemplar way of how things are done in your company and it's your choice to set this example to to all of the employees in your company. So it's your responsibility. Ah, and so do it.
01:06:36.47
Ben Owden
Well thank you, Thank you so much mattas for for a wonderful time. This has been very very great for me and just like to hear. Ah, you know how you think and just particularly just like go deeper you know from. Book. So Yeah I was a great read and I and I recommend it to any leader really to just like get a better understanding of how people function and why if people function the way that they actually do you know? Um, So why do smart people you know behave So Strangely so to speak. The book does deliver as far as responding to that question So I Would recommend it to anybody else and we'll add links to you know the book. Um on the description of this particular episode and to our dear listeners. Thank you so much for listening This has been the Why Lead podcast.