In this episode, Ben sits down with Ms. Christine Musisi, a leader with over 23 years of experience in the development field. Discover the power of love and integrity in leadership, and the importance of saying no for personal growth. Gain wisdom on family-work balance and the pivotal role of self-affirmation. Christine's story is a beacon of inspiration, urging us to find purpose, volunteer, and navigate our unique paths to success. She shares insights on leadership and the importance of followership. Tune in to gain inspiration and learn about the principles that have guided Ms. Musisi's successful career in sustainable development.
In this episode, Ben sits down with Ms. Christine Musisi, a leader with over 23 years of experience in the development field. Discover the power of love and integrity in leadership, and the importance of saying no for personal growth. Gain wisdom on family-work balance and the pivotal role of self-affirmation. Christine's story is a beacon of inspiration, urging us to find purpose, volunteer, and navigate our unique paths to success. She shares insights on leadership and the importance of followership. Tune in to gain inspiration and learn about the principles that have guided Ms. Musisi's successful career in sustainable development.
Greetings to you. I hope you are doing well and are having a productive and meaningful day.
Welcome to another episode of the Why Lead podcast and I'm your host, Ben Owden. Now today we're sitting here having a conversation with an African giant in the space of development, and I will just spend the next few seconds to read through her bio. She has more than 23 years of leadership experience in the development arena.
She has worked in a wide variety of contexts and led innovative initiatives in local economic development, democratic governance, poverty reduction, social mobilization, civil society empowerment, gender and development, business and private sector engagement, and development financing. She has served for UN Habitat, UN Women, and currently serves as the UNDP resident representative in Tanzania tasked with providing both managerial and substantive leadership for sustainable development. Ladies and gentlemen, Ms. Christine Musisi. So I want us to start by playing a game. I will basically give you two options, and I would like for you to pick one that you feel like you resonate with, more among the two that I'll mention.
Right. So we'll start with one time versus money. Time versus money.
Time versus money. They are both very important. But what I know is that money can be redeemed when lost but time is irredeemable.
It needs supernatural intervention to be redeemed and you need time to make money. So I would say carry both of them but ensure that you do not lose time. Thank you.
People versus outcomes. And this is interesting considering the work that you do and very mission and outcome driven but people are the ones working towards that. So people versus outcomes.
I would say that we all work towards outcomes but outcomes without people are empty and not sustainable. And it's so important that whatever you are working towards is for the people, by the people and with the people. I'm not describing government but I'm saying it actually does make sense.
Yeah. So people this is an interesting one. The means justify the end or the end justify the means? Between those two philosophical ways of thinking and approaching life which one do you resonate with the most? Is it possible for me to change the statement and say that we must achieve the end through just means? So the end is important but the process it takes to get there is equally as important.
It's so important and it determines whether that end will sustain, whether it will multiply and whether you will have peace while moving towards that end. A final one. I will tell the truth even when it's hard versus I will tell the truth when only it is convenient to do so.
I will tell the truth with love. You will tell the truth with love. Even when it's hard, you will tell the truth love because truth can either build or kill but lies take freedom away from you and everyone else.
So if you tell the truth but with love you'll be able to achieve what you want to achieve by not hurting another person because of your truth, by staying true to your word because of the truth. Now, we've had a prior conversation and in our conversation when I was listening to your story I was quite amazed because there is this statement that says it takes a team to make a dream work. That you can have dreams, you can have ambitions, you might have a lot of potential but for all of those things to be realized you need a team of people in different seasons of your life.
And listening to your story it was very clear that there have always been people who've played a role in your success and humans. And I think when I paid attention to what you were saying there even seemed to be a divine presence as part of your team to contribute towards your success. And I think it's an important thing to always clarify because we live in a world where people like the concept of a self made woman.
A self made man. And from my point of view. I think when people call themselves self made, either you're completely unaware of the forces at play in your life, so it's either ignorance or arrogance, so to speak.
But you are very clear that your success is a result of different individuals who've played a role. So I guess my question there is maybe there is someone listening or watching who they have a dream, they have aspirations that they want, and they can't get there alone. What kind of person do you need to be to make it easy for those who desire to support you, to support you? I think in my journey, it has been very important that as much as I am reliable, I also rely on others to make things happen first, I rely on God.
I cannot move in any direction without that confidence that I am moving in the right direction with God. And I have people who have taken me on as my mentors, who have told me the truth, even when it hurts, but with love, as I say, to shape me towards where I am now. I had a very specific mentor.
Her name is Anashana Clinch. She's now retired from the UN. But she took me by the hand even when I was a junior UN volunteer and told me, you can do this.
She just threw me into the deep waters to produce a national program as a UN volunteer of a country where I was not living at that time. I was in Mongolia, and she called me to Kyrgyzstan to prepare a new program. And when we did it, then she asked me to lead.
You know, if it hadn't been for her, I would have never known that I have the capacity to do it. But then I couldn't do it alone either. I had to rely on her team and to make the relationships with her team in Kyrgyzstan effective so that we could work together to produce the outcome.
So in Africa, we have a proverb if you want to go first, go alone, but if you want to go far, go with others. And that has been a lifelong lesson for me. You need people who trust you, who are more senior than you.
You need people who trust you, who are your peers, and you need people who trust you, who follow you from, who look up to you to make things happen. Having good relationships and adding value to others is most critical, but it doesn't stop there. People need to see that when they are with you, their efforts are maximized.
They learn, they get better, but also they achieve something because just having a kumbaya relationship with people is not enough. I like that be reliable, but rely on people as well. And I like that we have to aspire to have a balance between achievement and becoming.
So we're growing, but also we're getting the right things done as well. Now, even when I was reading through your bio here, it was very obvious that you've played different roles in different markets and contexts and organizations and solving different kinds of problems. Now, leadership is said to be universal, meaning that while your role might change, you might be a mother, might be a manager, might be an entrepreneur, our roles change.
But the function of leadership, to a large degree, what that looks like, is universal. So in all the different markets we just mentioned here a few countries, and now you're in Tanzania, and who knows where you'll be next year? Exactly. Playing all those different roles, exercising leadership at different levels, what are some leadership principles that have remained true and constant in spite of the different circumstances and missions that you've been a part of? Yes, I think maybe I wouldn't call it principles, but what has led me to succeed in different contexts? I think the first one is to understand that you need, wherever you go, to have real followers.
Whether they are your bosses, your peers, or people under you, they need to follow you because you're adding value to them. That means you need to really invest in building trust. People need to know what is your vision, what is your agenda? Are you here for us or not for us? And that is always something you need to establish right from the beginning.
And the other is that for you to understand that while there are people who always align with you, there are those who may not align with you, and then there are those in the middle who can be swayed either way. And the important thing here is to reward those who are with you and to bring everybody on board. But there are those who never change.
And the issue is to learn how to manage them. But the important thing is not to be seen that you are alienating others. The other important thing, especially when you're going into a new context, is to understand.
What is this context? To do your research before you go. Understand the culture, the language? What drives people towards positive results? What drives them towards negativity? What are their fears, so that as you enter a new context, you are willing to immerse yourself into the work with understanding. Many times I've learned to deal with what we call the unconscious bias.
And this is where people have told you, oh, people in Uganda behave this way, people in Tanzania are like this. And you come with your established bias sometimes. You know, for example, my husband knows I drive very well, but when we are driving together and somebody starts making mistakes, a couple of times he said, that must be a woman.
That's a subconscious bias. But he knows that we drive very well. He knows that our insurance premiums are much less than men because men have more accidents than women.
But sometimes, because of what we've heard many times, so it's better to come with an open mind and get to know the people and start from what you are learning from them at the time. Another important, very critical principle, which we don't normally bring into the development sphere is love. Be determined to love the people where you're going, whether they love you back or not.
And I always want to use the term agape love because it's about truth, it's about justice, it's about mercy. So it's not about feelings or I love this person because they love me. But if you love the country and you say, I love this country, Tanzania, it's a great country and you start from there, whatever challenges you face, you will always filter them through that lens and you will keep moving towards the direction that you need to move.
The same with people. And I have found that to be a very strong steering wheel for me through all circumstances. I love that because I think as I was listening, I realized that every single one of those approaches is standing on some sort of virtue or skill.
Like you were saying. I like how you said it. You said it beautifully where you need followers.
And when most people hear that you need followers, they tend to think of subordinates, people who report to you. But you are very intentional in saying you need followers. People who you probably report to, people who are rank higher than you do.
And I like that because it's this idea that in an organization, we're all followers and we're all leaders. Which means it takes a great deal of humility for leaders to be that way. Meaning that sometimes you are following someone who's probably reporting to you.
And the second thing you were saying, I think, about bias, we have to be self aware because to have the level of self awareness coupled with humility to admit that, okay, I have assumptions about a particular group of people, a particular society or culture that maybe they're not grounded on some reality. These are false assumptions that people have used as maybe a small sample group of people and generalized and put everyone together. So I like that sense.
And then of course, love never fails, as the saying goes. Yes, it really does. But before you ask me another question, I think if you understand leadership to be mainly influence, then it's not about ruling, it's not about control, it's about persuasion and influencing others because they see the value you bring.
And if you see it that way, then you are able to influence those above your peers and those below. I think if you understand the art and science of influence. Now, there's a saying that says a good leader must first be a good follower.
Yes. How true has this been in your career and journey in life? Well, I have followed throughout my career because I believe that when you follow diligently, you are able to learn from others and by subordinating to your seniors, they feel comfortable around you. Because we live in a very competitive world.
If you are a deputy who wants to assert yourself and show that you're better than your senior, you are going to lose. But if you're a deputy who says, I'm going to invest my time to ensure that my senior is successful, then the success is for both of you. The success is for you both.
So it really helps you to follow not with false humility, but with genuine interest in investing in the success of the person you're following. Actually, I would say again, whether they are your seniors or your peers or the followers or people who are not who report to you. Yes.
Now, in our conversation when we met, we spoke a bit about this idea of the process. And I know you have a passion for young Africans and the potential buried in all of us and what that could mean for a continent. But there is this toxic relationship we have with waiting.
We don't like waiting. We like quick results. We want things done.
If someone is probably looking at you and say, you know what? I want on my 7th, 8th year to be the head of UNDP, right? So sometimes either it's being overly ambitious and determined and as a result of that, we want things quick and we want things fast. And in my conversation, you share some stories of when you also were very clear on things that you wanted. And even certain seasons you had your own timeline, but throughout you remained faithful and you waited and a lot of those things came to pass.
So what I personally want to know is, in those seasons of waiting, what kept you faithful? What did you tell yourself so that in spite of the ambitions you have and the fact that they are not your present reality, you still gave your absolute best in the present moment in whatever assignment you had? I think that first of all, I had to clarify what is my purpose in life? Why did God bring me on Earth to be here? And I understood that I'm here to help others reach their full potential, be it individuals, be it nations, be it a continent. And that stood very clearly in my heart and in my mind. And I had a vision of being able to lead internationally, to lead in the home, to lead in community.
So whatever place I was put, my ambition was to be a leader. Where I was, I knew I was going forward. I even qualified at one time, for example, to be a Resident Coordinator of the UN in 2010.
And I always had that ambition. But I knew that wherever I am placed, it's my journey towards that. And it just happened that what I invested in in 2010 was the process through which I was recruited for this position as resident Representative in 2019.
Resident representative of UNDP in 2019. So whatever you invest in where you are will always bear fruit in its time. And by that time, you will actually be ready for it.
So I believe that every stage in my life, if I come through a very serious crisis, I just say I'm not at my destination. I'm still on my journey, and I'm going to get there. So I invest in that journey until I reach where I'm going.
I hope I have. Yes, I like that, because I think sometimes we tend to look at the catastrophes that happen in our lives as the destination. Some people look at failure as final.
But if failure is not final, then it's just a lesson. It's just a stop towards something greater. Our mistakes.
And to be honest, is there real failure? It's a life lesson. You woke up even a baby. When they're learning to walk, they fall so many times.
Why don't they give up? Because they are growing. But we have a mindset sometimes of wanting to be right all the time, and that is pride, humility helps you to understand that even when I fall down, it's actually okay. I can always get up and continue my yeah, I'm not superhuman.
No, I'm not superhuman. Even Batman makes mistakes. I like that.
Now, there is a comedian in America called Jerry Seinfeld. He had a TV show in the 90s called Seinfeld, and it was an extremely successful show, and they were making millions of dollars. They were probably the most lucrative TV show in the world.
And at the very peak, he decided to stop filming. And people thought he was crazy. Said, now you are making the big bucks.
Now, why don't you milk this cow? And he said, you know what? I like the idea of living at the very top. I don't want to stop doing things when things aren't working anymore. Now, I am aware that you are soon transitioning into the next stage of your career and life.
And from an outsider's perspective, I probably have the same reaction that people had with Jerry Seinfeld, meaning that why now? Because you're a top and staying around probably only means that you're going higher and higher. And I'm sure there are people who would kill to be in this particular position, but you said, no, I think it's time for something else for me personally, and I've thought about this quite deeply, and I'm curious to know what kind of conviction do you have to make such a decision? Because while it feels like a simple one from you, and you say it so casually from outside looking in, it's like, this is not an easy decision. It's not an easy decision, especially when you're used to a system of leadership.
I've been in the UNDP for 27 years, actually, in the UN system, and I branched off to UN women as regional director and UN Habitat as a global director for external relations and then came back to UNDP. It's been a beautiful journey with lots of ups and downs. However, what actually made me change my direction early on in my career was at university because I was studying my Bachelor's of Business Administration and Management, and it had a minor on Christian ministries.
And through that process, I got to learn about the informal sector. My ambition was to sell cars. I loved cars.
I still love them in a way, but that was my ambition to market vehicles, to make a lot of money through cars. But that experience of being exposed to the informal sector made me realize there's a lot more to life than making big bucks. People's lives need to be transformed, and that is what led me to specializing in rural development, rural social development, and social and gender analysis in development, to really focus on women, young people, and vulnerable groups.
So when I started in the UN, I started as a UN volunteer, and that was beautiful because I was working on the ground with communities, with young people, with families, to see that their lives are transformed. I moved on to Kyrgyzstan, where I think I would consider my tour in Kyrgyzstan as my future. That is what I enjoyed most, seeing communities transform from poverty to wealth through the work we were doing as a team.
Then when you do very well, you're always promoted to a higher level, regional level that is far away from the people whose lives you want to transform. Then global levels, then even at the country level. Here we have worked with communities, but as a representative, I am a little bit far from the people.
And my passion is to invest through systems like I've done here, through organizations, but also personally by impacting on individuals. And I'm grateful that I have mentored a group of young people here in Tanzania and in Uganda who are having an impact on others. And I just feel very passionately that I need to go and expand on that kind of work to see that young people have a chance to clarify their purpose, their dreams, and work towards those dreams, not only for their own benefit, but for the benefit of others.
And I would like to see a continent of Africa full of value based leaders that can steer the continent to its greatness. That's my passion that I want to follow. Wow, I'm glad it's a very good example because I think sometimes when people become very successful and that success is rewarded by a lot of things accolades, recognition, passion tends to die sometimes.
So I'm glad that you've kept your passion. Now, you've mentioned something there towards the end, value based leaders, and I believe that sustainable leadership has to be grounded on a set of values. And throughout our conversation, you've referenced a few things.
You've mentioned your family, you've mentioned God, you've mentioned love, what sort of values have you adopted or selected throughout your journey that have been the pillars holding your leadership and career together? There are quite a number of values because as I read the book of wisdom that I center my life on, I learn something every day about how I need to lead my life. But the first value, which I have already mentioned, is love. Love for God and love for everyone else in your sphere of influence and even embracing your circumstances with the view that when you treat others with justice, with compassion, with respect, with mercy, and you put yourself in their shoes, you are very likely to succeed and to have peace in your mind as you go through your life.
Now, the second value that also gives you total peace is integrity. Not only doing things the right way, but doing the right things and for the right reasons. I think that is really important.
The third value, I would say, which is very prominent here in Tanzania, is respect that keeps the peace. That's why I believe that Tanzania's role in this global village we live in is to bring peace to the world. I sincerely believe that because even if you have an enemy, if you have an enemy who's older than you in Tanzania, you can't help it.
But look at them and say, Shikamo, I see that as a vital value that can open doors for you. Then the last but not least is the value of excellence striving to be indispensable wherever you are put. I find that if you take a route of, I am entitled to be here.
I am the resident representative, so everybody should be serving me. And you fail to serve with excellence, you fail in your mission. And so value of excellence for me is critical in my life.
I remember my father, we used to have a small fireplace at home every after dinner and prayers, where he told us that you know, when you have a degree, even if you're given a broom to sweep, sweep like somebody who has a degree. Whenever you're given a job to do, do it to the best of your ability. Yeah, I think it's that there's a verse in the Bible, whatever your hands find to do, do it as unto the Lord, giving it your absolute best.
I would agree. That is a value that drives me too. Now, something else that I think even as soon as I walked in here, I think maybe a few minutes in, you mentioned your husband when I met you.
He keeps coming up, and I think that tells me that as much as you've had success in your career and everything else, you pay attention to your home life and your personal life. And these days, there's this conversation around balance especially, and it seems to be that there's more of a burden on women than men. And I once had a guest on the podcast and we spoke about this and she said, Ben, let me correct you.
For African women it's not work life balance, it's work work balance because you're working at the office, but you're also working at home. So my question is how have you been able to maintain healthy family atmosphere and relationships with your children, with your husband, but also be successful in your career? Because there are a lot of people, men and women, who aspire to have more influence and climb up the ranks. But usually that comes at a cost.
And for some people who maybe are not as grounded, usually it's very easy to sacrifice family for the sake of that idea. That the end, which is probably more money and it should justify the means. But how have you been able to make sure that your home life is satisfying but also your career and job is also satisfying? It hasn't been very easy, but I'm very grateful to God that we are both God fury and when we are praying together, we can report each other to God.
And it helps sometimes to put things in perspective. But I've had a very supportive husband who has brought us up, myself and my children. We made a decision earlier on that we need to stay together and if one of us has a career that takes them forward faster, the other one would follow and find a way of making it.
We have many friends and colleagues whose husbands work in different countries, in different organizations, but we felt that that would not work for us. So we have made it on one salary sometimes. But he takes care of our investments, he takes care of the family business that we do.
So in that way, he also is bringing a strong contribution, but he's more flexible. And why? One thing I learned, which is one of the values, is respect. Even if you are a senior CEO in a company, your children don't see you as a senior CEO, they see you as mum.
Your husband sees you as a wife. So it's important for them to know what you do and how important it is. But it's also important to be their mom and their wife.
And I was just saying, giving a joke, that my husband was looking forward to my cooking after retirement. I have still other things to do. I'm not just going to cook, but they love my cooking.
When I'm with them, I give them everything. I strive for excellence as far as family is concerned. But they also know that I might not be there.
But they know if Mummy comes back, she will be with us. Yes, I remember one time I came back from Mission and I was in tears because I found my baby already walking. He started walking when I was not there.
It's one of the most painful things. But we made up. We made up in so.
Many other ways. So it's really when you are with them, you give your all and it has helped a lot. Wow, I'd love to meet your husband.
It sounds like a great individual. Now, as we're wrapping up, we have this question that we ask a lot of our guests, which is the one? One one. And what is the one value? You've mentioned a number of them, but if we're to narrow it down to one value that you know that I will not compromise, I can maybe compromise here and there, but this one I will protect at all costs.
What is the one book that you've read along the journey of your life and career that you say, if only I had this book 510, 15 years ago, I think maybe I would have made better decisions or developed a different approach to how I approach life. And one habit, maybe a habit that you adopted later on in life that you're like, if I had developed this habit sooner, maybe my life would have been slightly different. So the one one, one book, one habit and one value.
Okay. I think one book I wish I had read way before was John Maxwell's book on Becoming a Person of Influence. That has taught me a lot about influence.
And I remember one of the exercises I was doing was how you needed to choose one person that you really would like to influence. And I chose my son because he was a teenager at the time and we needed to go into another direction. And I applied some of those principles and things turned around for me.
And I really enjoyed that book. On a habit that I wish I had learned before in my journey was the habit of saying no. Because there's a fine line between wanting to add value to others, loving others, and approval addiction.
And really addressing that is so important in the journey of a leader, because you want to lead and maximize other people's efforts and be available. But there are times when you need to say no, and that's really important. You can't be everywhere.
You can't be the one for everyone. Yes. The other was the value.
If you can allow me to expand the value, it is integrity with love. Integrity with love. That would be my value.
Because with both of those, I can sleep very well at night knowing that I have done the right thing. And people who come to me, they leave me empowered and not wounded. Wow.
Beautiful. I like what you said there, and you said it so simply. But I think it's something that a lot of people, a lot of leaders are suffering from, which is the addiction for approval.
Sometimes we are suffered from it for a long time. Yeah. Many of us tend to look at addiction as, oh, you're addiction to alcohol or drugs or power, in fact.
But the addiction for approval, it's so quiet, it's so subtle. But it comes at a great cost. It does.
It can cost you everything, by the way. And also you put a burden on others to always reassure you, to always reaffirm you. No, reaffirm yourself.
Be clear that I am making the right decision, I'm moving in the right direction, and I'm good at it. Not proudly, but reaffirm yourself. Don't burden others to reaffirm you.
Be your own cheerleader. Yeah. Be your own cheerleader.
And there's a whole crowd that is happy that you're doing well. That is God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are really happy for you, so move with them.
Wow. Thank you so much for this conversation. It was insightful.
You've said a number of things here that I think if I was to pick on every single one of them would probably spend the whole day here. But I know that I would listen to this conversation again. And you've packaged it so succinctly, it's simple, it's concise, it's to the point, but it's powerful, so I appreciate that.
Now, if I was to ask you for maybe your last words, I think there's a guest that I asked that I said, I'm not going anywhere. You're saying last words. I'm not dying.
But let's say there's a young person listening and they have ambitions and they have goals and they feel like where they are right now, they feel like they don't have a starting point because maybe the resources they feel like they need to start, they don't really have them. Maybe the support, the people to open those, they feel like it's Joseph in the pit where I think I'm supposed to be something, but when I look at my surroundings, I don't seem to see anything indicating that there is hope. So for someone who's in that situation and listening, what would be your words of encouragement to them? Well, I would actually encourage that person to take time to know who they are and why they are.
This really centers you. It becomes your wherever, whatever position you are. You mentioned Joseph.
He knew who he is and he knew why he was because he had his dreams. He knew he had been called to do something transformative in the world. And that means really looking at your talents, your gifts, the gifts that you have.
What do I do very well with minimal effort? What comes naturally to me that I can do very well? And what do I aspire to become? How can I use this to be better and to work towards my dreams and knowing that? Also, look at where you are and be ready to volunteer. Know most people want to immediately. I finished university, I want to get a job.
I want to earn money because I see that Sarah or Michelle have already gotten a job and they are driving a car. I'm still here. Take your time.
Find organizations that really need volunteers. And there are so many, especially nongovernmental organizations, because those small organizations, the experience you get there is invaluable. It's just like a doctor being posted to a rural hospital, visa vis an urban hospital.
In the urban hospital, they will probably get one experience of a Caesarean section once in a month or in a year. But in the rural community, you will be doing Caesarean sections every single day. So you learn better in a small organization because you have more influence, you have more opportunities to do new things within a small organization.
Volunteer, learn, be excellent where you are. These are the people who are going to find, for example, if I'm volunteering for Ben, ben has spoken to Christine Musisi and he can say, Christine, you know, there's this person I really like the way they immerse themselves in a job and can you give them an opportunity? Can you recommend them to someone? That is how you grow. And the other thing I would say to a young person, we were talking about it before, remember, there's always a process.
You don't go to the top immediately. If you go to the top before you become the top, you will come down to your default station. So become who you want to be.
Become what you want to see in the future. And it's about growing, and investing in yourself. Knowledge is so important.
Most people don't want to pay for knowledge, but it's important that at least a percentage of the income you have, you pay for learning. And we have so many free resources now with the digitized world. There's no excuse for somebody to spend 2 hours on television when they could have spent that learning something new.
There's a lot more. Yeah, that's well said. And I like the reminder that no one can defy gravity.
Gravity will pull you. It will pull you down. We always talk about the mindset and the paradigm, your level of thinking.
You're only as successful as your level of thinking. And if you go higher without developing a new paradigm, your paradigm pulls you down. Always.
We've seen people who win the lottery, they go bankrupt in two years. True. Because they have been pushed up to a level where they haven't become.
So it's important. Wow. And I think that will be a great note to finish our conversation, at least for today.
Thank you. So thank you so much for the opportunity and for the time to have this conversation. And to our dear listeners and viewers, thank you so much for engaging with us to the very end.
This has been The Why Lead Podcast, and I'm your host, Ben Owden.